Playing outside

**kris** · 05-08-2011, 10:17 AM

Originally Posted by jzucker

NOOOOOOOOOOOO

That is totally wrong. Playing outside and playing free are totally different concepts.

Playing outside implies playing outside the harmonic structure of a specific set of changes that the rhythm section is playing. Playing free is the entire group improvising chord changes and melodies simultaneously. Ironically, playing free is usually more "inside" than playing "out".

By the way, playing "outside" was taught in classes 30 years ago at the university of miami in their jazz program...

Jack,
Yessssssssss...You are absolutly right.
Regards
kris

**NSJ** · 05-08-2011, 10:50 AM

Tangent on Jazz vs. the Nylon Brethren:

Just a couple of observations:

1. Regarding the "guilty til proven innocent comment", I'm pretty sure that comes from the presence of a Toronto based flamenco guitarist who posts mucho SPAM here that people have learned to ignore.

2. My teacher has been developing jazz and classical guitarists for over 55 years, and I would consider him the expert on this subject. He loves both sides of the instrument equally, and I would consider him to be one of the very few who is a MASTER of both musics. Principally, he says that he can develop a competent (read: functional, not master) classical guitarist in a shorter amount of time than a competent jazz guitarist--a jazz guitarist has to process more information, has to thoroughly understand theory, harmony, etc, in order to be a competent improviser--to play inside and out. (no controversy here: the clarinetist Don Byron once quipped, "even the saddest bebop trumpeter has to understand harmony, in a symphony, it's usually the composer and/or pianist who digests this to the same extent, while the orchestra players generally are concerned with their own parts and instruments"). Thus, in order to play out, you have to master theory, harmony, playing inside. I agree that this is different than playing "free/avant guarde".

3. Incidentally, one of my teacher's new students is a flamenco guitarist. Very very cool guy, outstanding player, unpretentious and kind person. In fact, he himself used to teach flamenco at the Old Town School of Folk Music here, and is one of, sadly, very few guitarists in Chicago who makes it professionally strictly by performance alone. He is also very grateful for the instruction, as learning to read music, which is a sin qua non for jazz musicians, has opened up exciting musical roads for him.

**fumblefingers** · 05-08-2011, 11:28 AM

Originally Posted by jzucker

sheesh, ditch the arguments. If you don't agree with the concept of "outside" playing, please move on.

its just Kevin's spirit living through others.

just kidding of course: the reality is that the internet is one giant argumentation portal. no surprise to see it here too.

**fumblefingers** · 05-08-2011, 11:38 AM

Originally Posted by czardas

Well I personally have met and had lessons from some of the best musicians in the world. To me jazz is just another style of music, no better nor worse. I certainly would not consider it any more complicated than other styles of music. Most jazz rhythm is nothing like as complicated as for example say Indian music. It is said to take three generations to produce a tabla player. Any kind of pompous jazz attitude is really unwarrented, altough it saddens me that it does exist. Any musician worth his or her salt will not be taken in by it.

hehe. you may have set the bar too high for your comparison. are you considering country and western, pop, rock, hip-hop, blues, etc?

don't you think that jazz is just a little more complicated than those? (not that complexity is the point mind you. rather, i think that the mind appreciates some degree of variation. music that is too simple and repetitive can become quite monotonous at the least and torturous at the most).

**mr. beaumont** · 05-08-2011, 11:43 AM

Originally Posted by czardas

Where did I say that?

Here is one insight for you. There is no such thing as playing outside! It's just a stupid way of saying free improvisation. Playing outside what? Nearly every note you can possibly play can be given some kind of theoretical interpretation.

There are one or two advanced players around here, and that's about it. Jazzpunk you ask "why can't we get along?", and then you accusingly point a finger at me. It's not very easy to get along with idiots. But like ksjazzguitar said, I'm stupid and I don't know anything. Like Jack said, I have no idea what I'm talking about. Nonesense!

You're making "outside" playing into something it's not. Of course those notes can be related back to anything--outside is a way of thinking--intentionally saying, "hey, I'm gonna play a Dbmaj7 line over this Cmaj7 chord and then resolve." Don't overthink it, or assume that everyone else is.

The second part of your post is pretty unflattering, brother. There's lots of good players here who know their stuff--you're just coming off now as a guy who's really ruffled. Take a breather. I've always thought you were a good member here who engages in good conversation--but if you really want to feel like an outsider, make a comment like that that has the DOZENS of pros on this board scratching their head and saying "Is he talking about me?"

**jzucker** · 05-08-2011, 01:48 PM

and I didn't say czardas doesn't know what he's talking about but I do think he makes some naive statements. Anyone who thinks jazz rhythm is simple hasn't done their homework. Less than 1% of jazz players I have EVER heard can hang with the kind of groove that Wynton Marsalis, Ali Jackson, Carlos Henriquez lay down.

Too many people make comments about jazz' simplicity without taking a deep dive into the music. Yes, on paper the rhythms of jazz look simple compared to indian music but indian harmonies look simple on paper compared to jazz harmony. In reality , there is more to each than what you see on the surface. Even rock bands which are often put down by jazz musicians require a deep feel to groove in the proper way. You can be a great jazz or indian classical musician and you could absolutely suck at james brown groove even though on paper, james brown's music is dirt simple.

How insulting would it be to czardas if I were to say that flamenco is simple and only 3 chords (E, F/E, and G/E)

On the surface, anyone can say anything is simple. When you can play Coltrane's Lush Life exactly in tempo and feel with Coltrane then you can comment about the feel of jazz rhythm.

**kris** · 05-08-2011, 04:09 PM

It is realy hard work to be good jazz musician.

**Jazzpunk** · 05-08-2011, 04:19 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

The second part of your post is pretty unflattering, brother. There's lots of good players here who know their stuff--you're just coming off now as a guy who's really ruffled. Take a breather. I've always thought you were a good member here who engages in good conversation--but if you really want to feel like an outsider, make a comment like that that has the DOZENS of pros on this board scratching their head and saying "Is he talking about me?"

He was clearly talking about me Jeff. I'm the amateur idiot and yet I was able to clarify yet another concept about jazz improv that the great flamenco master clearly doesn't understand. Oh, the irony.

If you're going to call someone an idiot, at least try not to prove yourself to be a bigger idiot in the very same post.

**mr. beaumont** · 05-08-2011, 04:32 PM

Well, the specific comment I was referring to was about the "1 or 2 advanced players..." I quoted a bit too far, but again, gents, it's getting a little too personal.

Leave out the personal attacks or we have yet another good thread that's gotta have revisions and removals andall that biz that would be unecessary if we stuck to the "common sense rules."

**jzucker** · 05-08-2011, 06:00 PM

what is the pompous attitude that jeffstritt keeps talking about? That we should stay on topic? this group puzzles me sometimes...

Jeffstritt never addressed the fact that he completely misunderstood my intention of getting more advanced pros to contribute here. Again, i never said "get rid of the amateurs". All I said was that's quit the bickering and pwning and concentrate on interesting discussions that don't turn off serious contributers.

Matz - Don't be afraid of deleting offensive posts from folks that are just deliberately derailing threads. Remember, a democracy cannot exist without rules and regulations. A democracy without rules is anarchy.

**Jazzpunk** · 05-08-2011, 07:28 PM

Originally Posted by jzucker

Matz - Don't be afraid of deleting offensive posts from folks that are just deliberately derailing threads. Remember, a democracy cannot exist without rules and regulations. A democracy without rules is anarchy.

I'm gonna do my part and bow out of the forum for a while. Good luck and lighten up, will ya?

**jzucker** · 05-08-2011, 09:49 PM

You shouldn't leave but I do think it's true that the time spent on the forums could be spent practicing instead!

**kris** · 05-09-2011, 01:59 AM

This is just internet talk.
WhAT IS THIS INTERNET?
Where is the real live,gigs etc?
I practise a lot and want to be good...:-)

**czardas** · 05-10-2011, 05:09 AM

The fact that it has been suggested that I should learn to play like a jazz guitarist is pointless. It would take me years to change my approach, because I have spent the last 25 years trying to master the most difficult art of flamenco guitar. It isn't more or less of anything. Jazz, classical and flamenco are all extremely difficult. Try to walk in two directions at the same time and see where that gets you. While it may be a common misconception that one is more difficult than the other, I see it as being a fundamental mistake made by many.

When people say that my threads are a waste of time, and my answers to questions are useless, I would like a clear explanation. That is seldom forth coming, and it makes me wonder if these individuals are just being influenced by the things that other people have said. Not everything people say is indisputable fact. I will only answer a question if I feel qualified to answer. Where something is unclear to me I will ask, but I won't tollerate being put down by anyone. Sure these things make me angry, and I react and sometimes say stupid things. I have passion too. Anyway I'm too busy to argue.

**Jimieultra** · 05-10-2011, 06:41 AM

Remember? It´s called playing outside. So why not let´s talk about "playing outside"

So,first: Hello,I´m Michael Schäfer from Germany and I play guitar.-_-I´m mostly into funny music.(Contemporary, Avant, free, whatever)

My tip would be to not focus on such tricks like-play your pentatonics or Arpeggios (or chords or 2-5s...)an half step up, or down or whatever-cause its not that musically.Sure you can do that but those things are actually only nice to get from point A to B without thinking a lot.^^ (or exercises)

Playing outside is not like: In, out, in ,out, in in....it´s not a trick!
It comes maybe automaticly, if you (really) know and hear the scales, arps, where ALL the intervalls are,what guidelines(and tones) are and so on.You can´t really teach that cause it´s based on many personal aspects.

For example over an Em7 (or9,11,M7....)lol, we could play a Eb-7 arp
That would be 2 b5 #5 and 7 ok?
Now we play Em7 - 1 b3 5 b7.
Togehter thats 1 2 b3 b5 5 #5 b7 and 7. OK? If not ok, stop reading.
Now do the trick and play (over Em7) in arps. Em7, Ebm7,-----maybe Gbm7,Bm7,Bbm7!!! Sounds shit huh? But its all correct.The Questions should be:Wheres my point?What do I like?What sounds?What will I say?Think in intervalls,man. If you don´t understand a language,(Alphab,grama.etc) you can not speak it ,right?

**beasleybubba** · 05-13-2011, 01:27 PM

Hey I'm fairly new around here and I just want to say THANK YOU to all of the advanced players who so willingly share their wisdom with all of us. Jzucker, I ran into some of your videos a couple years ago before I even found the forum and have always been impressed with your playing and teaching. These "playing outside" vids are full of material I need to dig into... so I'm emailing myself the link to practice at home since I'm at work now. The "outside" sound is something I always wanted to be able to make, but it has taken years to learn how to play within the changes and I feel that I'm just now worthy of playing outside.

Again, thanks to all of you active posters who really know your stuff. My playing in 5 years will be so far beyond where it would be had I not found this forum.

**gersdal** · 05-15-2011, 10:11 AM

Originally Posted by VersatileJazzGuitarist

Jack, these are wonderful vids. I've never seen such straightforward lesson in playing outside.

Thanks for posting, man.

+1

**jzucker** · 05-15-2011, 11:03 AM

Originally Posted by Jimieultra

Playing outside is not like: In, out, in ,out, in in....it´s not a trick!
It comes maybe automaticly, if you (really) know and hear the scales, arps, where ALL the intervalls are,what guidelines(and tones) are and so on.You can´t really teach that cause it´s based on many personal aspects.

For example over an Em7 (or9,11,M7....)lol, we could play a Eb-7 arp
That would be 2 b5 #5 and 7 ok?

that's just as much a "trick" as playing a 1/2 step up or down. In fact it *IS* playing a 1/2 step away from the chord.

There is no single way to play outside. It's a matter of trying all possibilities. If you think using those "devices" i mentioned are tricks, try transcribing some "out" metheny or brecker because those are some of the techniques...err...tricks they use. I'd also advise transcribing dolphy and meditation era trane who use quite a bit different approaches.

**Spirit59** · 05-15-2011, 02:15 PM

Originally Posted by jzucker

that's just as much a "trick" as playing a 1/2 step up or down. In fact it *IS* playing a 1/2 step away from the chord.

There is no single way to play outside. It's a matter of trying all possibilities. If you think using those "devices" i mentioned are tricks, try transcribing some "out" metheny or brecker because those are some of the techniques...err...tricks they use. I'd also advise transcribing dolphy and meditation era trane who use quite a bit different approaches.

Jack,

I think that some of the people that are having problems with these "devices" sounding too "copy & paste" or otherwise sounding unnatural and forced need to:

1. Watch your first video in your original post and pay particular attention to the part where you are explaining how to maintain forward motion.

2. Get their ears to the point where they can hear this stuff. I think it's quite common that something will sound forced when the player doesn't really feel the note choice.

**paynow** · 05-15-2011, 03:42 PM

Originally Posted by Spirit59

Jack,

I think that some of the people that are having problems with these "devices" sounding too "copy & paste" or otherwise sounding unnatural and forced need to:

1. Watch your first video in your original post and pay particular attention to the part where you are explaining how to maintain forward motion.

2. Get their ears to the point where they can hear this stuff. I think it's quite common that something will sound forced when the player doesn't really feel the note choice.

+1. There is some wonderful info on these vids. Anything sounds cut and paste if you don't bring your own personality and creativity to it. Really pay attention to what Jack says in these lessons. It's great. I've been working through them and have been coming up with some lines that I really like; I knew some of this, but I have a tendency to play it safe sometimes. Coming back to this is bringing me out of that.

**kris** · 05-16-2011, 02:53 AM

Transcribe solos or parts of John Scofield.
He play outside very natural...It is interesting to analyse how he play jazz standards.Every of his notes are important.Try to analyse his solos in blues and rythm changes.
I am interested in his playing over 30 years/I have most of his CD's/.

**Jimieultra** · 05-17-2011, 07:09 AM

Hi, Jzucker

I dont wanted to sound like I know it better or shit like that.Peace.
I also love and do that stuff, but I think of it in an different way.For example:
Ebm7 over Eminor = the E minor gets an E major (#11)
Dm7 over Eminor = The E minor gets an E7Alt. (b9 #9 #5)
Dbm7 = E 9/13
etc..
We just change the color of the chord or do modal interchanges.The interesting things come out when you do that with all the other stuff.Scales ,Arps...and mix it.
For me that works best.:-)