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Harmonic minor - how often is it used?
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03-17-2011 11:25 AM
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A lot. Certainly, when you play a V chord in minor, you use it. If we are in Am and there is an E7, it is the default scale, A harmonic minor (although, I would think of it of E Spanish Phrygian or the 5th mode of H.M., because I like to think of the chord over which I'm playing, not the parent scale, but you get the idea.) You can also use it for a V in major too, but now you're using some altered notes, specifically, the b9.
There are other applications of the H.M., but they get increasingly "out there."
Peace,
Kevin
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And for playing over minor ii,v,i's, I think?
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That's what I meant by "V chord in minor." Some people like it over the iim7b5 too, but I don't.
Peace,
Kevin
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I like to used it to negotiate a VI7 turnaround, which basically is a V over a minor chord, what Kevin said.
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That's a good point, I should have said any dominant chord that leads down a P5 to a minor chord.
Peace,
Kevin
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Back in the 60's and even into the early 70's with added #9 The circles I gigged with use to use pull from Harmonic min. But it's pretty dated and unless I'm covering folk or some other styles besides Jazz...or something that has no other choice... I play off MM which makes more use of blue notes... you could say it's a mater of taste or choice... I'm not saying it's good or bad, right or wrong...
When you actually get down to playing... most jazz players rarely pull from a single harmonic area source... and when they do...it's not for very long... usually there is more than one single source for melodic and harmonic improve concepts going on...
If you want an analogy... think of a rhythmic figure... there is more going on than simply playing the figure...how one phrases, on top, ahead or behind the beat... If you want more... let me know... Reg
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Good posts. It is used a lot in jazz over V7 w P5. It also gets used over Dim7 chords. G#dim7 to Am is A HM, not some dim octatonic scale. Adding the back #9 into the scale for dom7#9's is cool too.
Don't think that ALT is a "better" choice than HM. It is just "different". Both are used, both are good.
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Hey JP do you mean MM as compared to HM... or do you mean phrygian dom. as compared to altered or as some say superlocrian in different circles... superlocrian... yea, sounds like I'm getting ready to watch a si-fi movie... it's almost an oxymoron the way it's used. Part of the difficulty for jazz players... in your example of G#dim7 going to A-, (is that with a b7), anyway when I see say G-7 , G#dim7, A-... I would play or imply 2 to 4 more changes getting to that A-. Context as always would set guidelines as to what and where I would pull from.
Hey Mrman93... what were you looking for as far as an answer(s)... what should you be practicing... some different viewpoints( you'll get plenty of those), of how HM is used. As you can see it's used differently in different styles of music, even by different players.
Best Reg
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How did you put the last time, you'd use it at an old-timers renion?
Originally Posted by Reg
That's why you should use it now, before it has a renaisance. That way you can say you were in the avant-garde of bringing it back.
Last edited by Aristotle; 03-17-2011 at 07:26 PM.
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At the risk of inviting extensive comments by Kevin, and without wishing in any way to contradict Reg, the harmonic minor is fundamental:
a) In minor keys. In classical harmony (dreading the worst Kevin can wreak here), if a note such as the major seventh has been introduced (e.g., with a dominant 7th), you need a good excuse to be able to change that to a minor seventh. In jazz you can be more flexible, but not too much. In the same way, the minor sixth rather than the major sixth is almost always the natural choice in a minor key. Between the two, you get that in a minor key, you are actually playing most of the time in the relative major or using the harmonic minor.
b) In major keys. All those old tunes that semi- or pseudo-modulate using dominant 7ths (All of Me - C E7 A7 etc.) are most easily approached with harmonic minors on those dom 7ths (in the example, the scales would be C, A harmonic minor, D harmonic minor, etc.). They're old tunes, but standards.
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+1 Good post. Secondary doms like V7/ii are HM by default, IMHO. MM comes in later as a jazzy reharm. Originally Posted by JohnRoss
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I never thought of using HM on a V/ii...something to try. Been working on my m7b5 arp into a HM as my minor 2-5-1's are pretty weak and I have been trying to bring out a stronger minor tonality when I run across those in a tune...
The ten pages of why flamenco theory dont work in a computer program and why there is no such things as teaching in another thread did not quite get around to this...
As always, thanks all for taking the time to share your knowledge..
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It's too bad, we were almost there when everyone asked us to stop. Originally Posted by bass2man
...The ten pages of why flamenco theory dont work in a computer program and why there is no such things as teaching in another thread did not quite get around to this......
Peace,
Kevin
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Hey John... I think that's what I was hinting at... all the old standards, the way we use to hear. Since mid 70's I have made an effort not to use natural min as the default min. Kind of an oxymoron... and even when I do... it's not for very long. I mean like a dotted quarter... maybe. I never stick with what using natural Min. implies... And I start with a maj 6th always. In All of Me.. if you add blues notes... HM is just one of the many choices.
Like I said back in the 60's and etc... that's the way I was taught to play... I don't now unless... well if I'm reading parts at show etc... old Big band charts... and even then there gone as soon as the solos begin... obviously depends on soloist... Like Aristotle was quoting me from an old post where I was razzing him on some of his joys of playing beautiful HM cadences... I had said something about the only time I play from HM... is at old timers reunions.... speaking of old timers I have a gig with Phil Woods in a few weeks... I bet I'll be using HM implications... I'll post some boot-leg videos from gig. And John... I'm wrong all the time, you can check with... well there's a long list... I mean in four bars from All of Me ... I might play or imply five or six harmonic areas... Are we talking jazz or did I miss something... again. Do you guys mean that's where you start... one of your options...or that's what you play from all the time...
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Reg ... can you give an example of a couple of substitute changes you would use in this case? Originally Posted by Reg
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It's just comes out. We were talking about second measure of Foggy Day - Am7b5-D7b9 - and the composer has the Eb in the melody. Really gets in the way. You could reharm that measure with Ab7 or Abmaj7 or Cm7b5 (which still leaves you with part of the A Harm Min Originally Posted by Reg
).
I wonder if you could address directly the points rasied by JohnRoss (C-E7-A7) and J-Pac (say C-A7-Dm), things common of the vintage. These songs are often written with that 7b9 harmony. It's characteristic.
Isn't you argument about modernizing these songs related to the audience and all that? If you hear these songs in the background of a movie, the sub plot may be Romeo's family versus Juliet's, the music is not going to sound like Tin Pan Alley meets Tone Rows.
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Sure... There are a few approaches... One would be lead note of A-, lets make it A-7 with E as lead not. So we have G-7 G#dim7 A-7... Originally Posted by Jazzaluk
Subs G#-7, chromatic
G#13with F going to the E
G#7#11.....D to E
G#7b13...E pedal
So you see my method... I simply voice a lead line...which can be a line that moves or uses common tone(s)... G-7(d on top) G#-7b5(d on top) to A-11( d on top) yes 3rd is includes, not a sus chord. There are many more... but you see my method;
The same method would work from 1/2 step above...
Then there are all the standard V chords built from implied Tri-tones...G#-D and B-F, the E7#9 or any version of...except straight mixo E7 works for my ears. You can then add all the possible II-7's ... then play the game of mix and match, or leave out the V7 chord(s) and pull from the min chords...
Dom subs...I would start with the standards... E7#9 and Bb13 #11 and which opens the door to a ton of other chords and harmonic areas to pull from...
If you want... Take every other note, besides G# and ( all 11), try and find a way to use all with all versions of chords... like I was doing with G#
So my options are root motion, lead lines, I can pull from harmonic implied area, once I establish, you can also pull from melodic implications... also once I establish... any scale. I also pull from harmonic implications of Blue notes... Modal Interchange is another method of establishing harmonic area to pull from.
If there was a melody... the melody would imply a harmonic area... would still have almost all the options... The melody would make some more difficult to use.
As you can see it's not like there are only a few options... another reason some jazz players use all large case roman numerals for analysis... that's another discussion.
Anyway hope opens some doors and even more important... ears... Reg
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seriously ? think this one over... Originally Posted by JonnyPac
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Well, both. I said it's the easiest approach, I didn't mean to imply it was the only one, but in practice (as opposed to theory) my set of resources doesn't stretch much further than that, the sort of trad jazz I learnt doesn't let you go very far 'outside,' not that I wanted to at the time, either. Coming back to it after so long, though, I'm looking for more approaches, like yours, which is one of the reasons I spend time on this forum. Originally Posted by Reg
Great tune, but when Gershwin does things, he has a reason. The way I understand A Foggy Day, that Eb in the melody is what makes it, and with those chords it puts the melody in G min, lovely and gloomy, matching the lyrics (no, anticipating the lyrics, even cleverer, the 'had me low, had me down' comes after that). The second time around it's harmonized with an Abm7, not sure what key it's hinting at, but it's even gloomier. Then the tune gets all diatonic and diaphonous, and goes up and down, like the sun breaking through. It's intentional, and it's so effective I don't think I would seriously reharmonize it (which is absolutely no reason for you or anyone else not to, of course). Originally Posted by Aristotle
It's how those Tin Pan Alley writers worked - they wanted to put out tunes which were easy for people to pick up on the first or second listening, in the same way that show tunes have to be easy to understand immediately. So the melodies generally have short ranges and are mostly diatonic, easy for people to hum along to. All those modulations are not real, they don't affect the melody, that's why I call them pseudo-modulations, they just make the accompaniment a bit more interesting. Originally Posted by Aristotle
Now, I could be wrong (mr beaumont is The Man for this stuff), but I think that that b9 is often the result of how jazzmen treated these tunes. To stick with All of Me (in C - C E7 A7 Dm, etc.), yes the E7 could have an F natural added to make a 7b9, but strictly speaking, the A7 shouldn't really have a b9, if anything it should be a 9, there's nothing in the melody or the rest of the harmony that says it should be a Bb instead of a B natural. Jazzmen knew what was coming, though, and played a Bb in anticipation (or an Ab over a G7, getting horns to play in anything except Bb, Eb and F is hard grind).
Which is a long-winded way of saying that you're right, D harmonic minor over the A7 would, as you put it, be more characteristic, even in period, and it would be my choice in the contexts I am used to. But D jazz minor would be quite OK and arguably more correct.
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Hey John... we can play the theory game, use what we're trained to hear as correct... verbally talk till we're blue, back up every idea with paper trails and examples.... then you hear or try something that is " not acceptable in certain circles or what ever... and it sounds good, at least to how your ears hear at that point in time. I've always tended to be pretty open to what are correct choices, in all aspects of music... some people hear something different and hear as mistake... I tended to think maybe I'm not aware of or haven't train my ears to be able to hear... Then decided if I like it... and went from there. The last 30 years...haven't run into a lot of new material, but many of musical concepts and usage have been stretched, to my ears beautifully.
Hey Mrman93... have we lost your interest... or are lights coming on... Reg
Hey Aristotle... sorry, are you making reference to the "point in time" thing... past, present or future....
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a very good way to understand gershwin's compositional methods is to study his own arrangements of his tunes for solo piano. Originally Posted by JohnRoss
Amazon.com: Complete Works for Solo Piano (Alfred's Masterwork Editions) (9780739057216): Gershwin, George, Maurice Hinson: Books
http://www.alfred.com/samplepages/00-31882.pdf
he was very specific about chord voicings.... how about 'i got rhythm' in Db ?
Last edited by oneworld; 03-18-2011 at 01:49 PM.
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JohnRoss
I agree with what you say about Gershwin, and that is part of why I am an improvise with material from the melody guy and not a CST guy.
The difference with Gershwin 7b9’s is they often are part of chords, lushed-up one notch on the dissonance scal,e used with those diatonic melodies you talked about. Look at - Our Love is Here to Stay – where the lyric goes Rockies may tumble Gibraltar my crumble. You can harmonize that Am7-D7 Gm7-C7 or “jazz” it up that one notch with Am7b5-D7b9 Gm7b5-C7b9. The difference is slight enough that neither should offend anyone at the wedding too much.
In the All of Me “category” songs are a little different. The b9 is usually not part of the chord, but part of the melody. The F is not usually used in the E7 chord. And Bb is not used in the A7 chord.
Here’s where I may be disagreeing with you a bit. In All of Me, the A7 “takes” a Bb melody note, the inside note, because the next chord is Dm. To contrast that, the A7 takes B natural when D is major, for example in the bridge to Five-Foot-Two.Which is a long-winded way of saying that you're right, D harmonic minor over the A7 would, as you put it, be more characteristic, even in period, and it would be my choice in the contexts I am used to. But D jazz minor would be quite OK and arguably more correct.
Another use of the B-natural is where it ends off the I-IV mini-cadence that sets up the close. Two examples would be (again) All of Me, where the lyric goes, ‘that ONCE was my HEART.’ Also, in I Can’t Give You Anything But Love, on the lyric, ‘you’ll know darn well, BA-by’ (I know, the usual key is F). In that type of use, the A7 takes the B natural even though its going to Dm. I can name a lot more where the song doesn’t have a 9th in the melody, but you can hear it should be the natural 9th because these other songs have trained you to expect it, like Melancholy Baby, where the lyric goes ‘kiss away each tear.’
To sum up, to me, it’s not a question of D Harm versus D Jazz Minor. I don’t even think like that, and until I started reading this forum wouldn’t have know how to express these ideas that way. To me, having learned these songs on piano, it’s all C. (When I go to E7, I have one black key, when I go to A7, I have two black keys, except where I noted above, then only one).
There’s more, but... And while I think of it, it's kind of ridiculous a guy should have such familiarity with the words and music of pop songs that are twice my age.
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Originally Posted by oneworld
seriously ? think this one over...
Playing A Phrygian Dominant (D HM) over A7b9 going to Dm V7/ii in C, etc. Right? No biggie.
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The sheet says C7 where you put an Am7, and I have a vague notion that I used to harmonize it as a Cm6 as often as not, i.e., 2nd position of your Am7b5. Originally Posted by Aristotle
Oh yes, you're right, there is a Bb in the melody, isn't there? Doesn't matter, even when there isn't - Don't Get Around Much Any More (C % A7% Dm G7 C %), say - jazzmen of the time played as if there was. It was breaking the rules, once, now it sounds almost clichéd.Here’s where I may be disagreeing with you a bit. In All of Me, the A7 “takes” a Bb melody note, the inside note, because the next chord is Dm.
Well, Melancholy Baby is an earlier generation of pop song, Victorian/Edwardian period, different style of harmonization. That's what I mean about the b9 having been a rule-breaker, twenty years before it just wasn't done.these other songs have trained you to expect it [a natural ninth], like Melancholy Baby, where the lyric goes ‘kiss away each tear.’
Now you're giving away your age, or youth. Anyway, what's it matter? You see kids with heavy metal tee-shirts, the music their dads grew up on, and it's a bit ridiculous at first sight, but every generation has always done that (and if Led Zep can still reach the adolescent in me, why shouldn't it in them?). I grew up with my dad's 78s, the Original Dixieland Jazz Band and stuff. Amy Winehouse got R 'n' B from her dad. If you are interested and led to find out more, that's all to the good, surely? The people I feel are ridiculous are the people of my own age who have never moved on and are still listening to stuff from the seventies and eighties. Or my wife's friends, with their (really bad) music from the Spanish 'movida' of the eighties and nineties. The important thing is to develop.it's kind of ridiculous a guy should have such familiarity with the words and music of pop songs that are twice my age.
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