Chord Scale Approach

[Jazzaluk]

First off, I think it is non chord tones that might need resolving. Second, isn't it a large part of jazz that we don't resolve what would need resolving in another idiom? Phrases end with 9ths, 6ths. or even b5ths in the melody.

I am not speaking for anyone else, but nothing I posted was motived by fear of non reslution.

I don't believe I was replying to your post. However I meant resolve to chord tones (as I said in the previous sentence) ....

A 9th can't be a chord tone? Still confused.

[Aristotle]

I don't believe I was replying to your post. However I meant resolve to chord tones (as I said in the previous sentence) ....

Sorry, been called anti theory or anti CST about 50 times on this forum in the last month. So, when someone types that, I think I am reading my name.

A 9th can't be a chord tone? Still confused.

Are you replying to my post, now? Because I though my post was clear. In jazz you don't necessarily have to resolve anything that might be a non chord tone and need resolving in another idiom.

[Jazzaluk]

In jazz you don't necessarily have to resolve anything that might be a non chord tone and need resolving in another idiom.

I see your point and I like this straight forward way of thinking. However, I have to say that if a note remains unresolved, it will usually be notated and understood as some chord tone (or scale) by someone and rationalized through some deep dark theory.

Personally, as an aside, I like to leave these nuances out of any analysis and view them simply as an interesting choice by the musician. This IMO is part of the "craftmanship" that really defines someone's voice, which is often lost in analysis. To me, it helps to keep the harmonic thinking simple when improvising.

[Reg]

Reg, I guess I just wanted to know more specifically what the thought process was. If you're playing dorian over a ii7, I know that 1, 3, 5, 7 are basically your chord tones. The other scale tones would be your extensions and I know that there are avoid notes and common chromatic alterations as well. Is this what you're thinking about when you play a given mode? If so, it's basically a reference to the harmony. Are you thinking dorian just as a reference to a kind of ii7 tone palette in terms of strong/weak or inside/outside sounds?

If it's something you'd rather address in a video response, those are always much appreciated. :-)

Hey Matt... sorry didn't get back quicker... probable doesn't relate now...

I don't have a thought process... I just play.
If I hear some dorian based phrase in a aeolian situation... I don't care... I play what I hear... if there is a thought process... it's a split second thing. I react and interact to whats going on, or take the music somewhere and make the other guys react and interact. When we're "talking" about what we might do... OK I can go through different methods of determining pitch collections or linear improve concepts. The traditional voice-leading, tension resolve etc...practices have long been gone, that was when I was a kid or student. If your thinking about those type of details... well it's time to take the training wheels off, hell I play tunes where the target tones are the altered tensions. I don't want to sound like a basic chord tone machine... I can sequence any pattern of chord tones or sub-chord tones through changes... might sound cool once, but that's the method playing me... I'm not after that, I want to play what I hear, as always I run the risk of what I hear not being worth hearing.
Sorry... lots of late nights in a row... I'm rummy.
I don't think/hear notes as 1, 3, 5, 7 , 9, 11 etc... there all chord tones, I guess what I mean is I've trained myself to hear characteristic or defining pitches for different harmonic situations, a simple example might be, 13th in dorian, Certain notes set my tonal table as to what harmonic area I'm playing/hearing from. Sometimes I need to set up where I'm going with my solo with context to be heard as I'm hearing. But I don't think about this while I'm playing... maybe once in while, in the bigger picture. And yes... everything relates to the harmony as well as the line, there one in the same to me. There's more, but we're talking melodic and harmonic concepts. And I think... yes to tone palette, strong week etc... I just don't think about it in those terms while I'm playing... I'll put something together in a video and try and go through the different methods of hearing/playing etc... Best Reg
On a personal note have a new CD coming out hopefully early summer, I'll post some of the takes when i get the rough stuff. It's smokin...

[jayx123]

Hey Matt... sorry didn't get back quicker... probable doesn't relate now...

I don't have a thought process... I just play.
If I hear some dorian based phrase in a aeolian situation... I don't care... I play what I hear... if there is a thought process... it's a split second thing. I react and interact to whats going on, or take the music somewhere and make the other guys react and interact. When we're "talking" about what we might do... OK I can go through different methods of determining pitch collections or linear improve concepts. The traditional voice-leading, tension resolve etc...practices have long been gone, that was when I was a kid or student. If your thinking about those type of details... well it's time to take the training wheels off, hell I play tunes where the target tones are the altered tensions. I don't want to sound like a basic chord tone machine... I can sequence any pattern of chord tones or sub-chord tones through changes... might sound cool once, but that's the method playing me... I'm not after that, I want to play what I hear, as always I run the risk of what I hear not being worth hearing.
Sorry... lots of late nights in a row... I'm rummy.
I don't think/hear notes as 1, 3, 5, 7 , 9, 11 etc... there all chord tones, I guess what I mean is I've trained myself to hear characteristic or defining pitches for different harmonic situations, a simple example might be, 13th in dorian, Certain notes set my tonal table as to what harmonic area I'm playing/hearing from. Sometimes I need to set up where I'm going with my solo with context to be heard as I'm hearing. But I don't think about this while I'm playing... maybe once in while, in the bigger picture. And yes... everything relates to the harmony as well as the line, there one in the same to me. There's more, but we're talking melodic and harmonic concepts. And I think... yes to tone palette, strong week etc... I just don't think about it in those terms while I'm playing... I'll put something together in a video and try and go through the different methods of hearing/playing etc... Best Reg
On a personal note have a new CD coming out hopefully early summer, I'll post some of the takes when i get the rough stuff. It's smokin...

Hey Reg, I agree that's the way to go about it! hear the harmony, hear the melody play the melody...

Good luck with your CD, cant wait to here those takes

[JonnyPac]

I just read a lot of theory books... I went through Jazzology, and all three vols of Ligon's Jazz Theory Resources. The authors point out the pitfalls of CST and "modal" jazz when it is applied to traditional tin pan alley changes, etc. It is unnecessary and was not used until later in jazz history for the most part.

As guitarists there is the trend to play scales and not fully realize the harmonic implications. This is fine for harmonically general sounds, as boob mentioned. The alternative is careful chord-tone/voice leading lines or a mature use of CST that takes in a consideration for all of the above.

Burt's rules:
1. Does it sound good?
2. Does it sound good?

[Aristotle]

Johnny
Burt's rule looks a lot like a question. I like my version of the rule better, because it ends in a period. That and - whatever works. If only those two truisms were enough, college professors could write music instead of books.

As guitarists there is the trend to play scales and not fully realize the harmonic implications. This is fine for harmonically general sounds, as boob mentioned. The alternative is careful chord-tone/voice leading lines or a mature use of CST

Johnny, if there is a trend to guitarist playing scales, it seems to me that would be the result of trying to "use" CST as a compositional matrix.

This is probably just wild speculation on my part, but do you suppose it's possible that guys like Tal Farlow, Jim Hall, and Joe Pass don't sound like they are caught up in a trend to play scales, because they didn't start out in an era where players are evangelized into Chord-Scale Theory.

[JonnyPac]

Jonny w/o H please...

I've said my two cents. CST is the macro pool of notes behind many great modern players. It could be argued that the pre-CST players rely on licks and a vocabulary or cliches. Woody Shaw is great example of a CST player.

I've taught 4000+ private lessons in the last decade. CST is something I teach after intervals and before harmonically specific outlines. It works, and it sounds good.

I'm tired of this discussion. I'm trying to help students, that's all. Believe what you like.

[Aristotle]

Believe what you like.

I might believe you or boob, if either of you give something to believe or disbelieve; could describe how mumbling all these scale names and chord names to oneself is supposed to translate to playing lines that don't sound "sucky."

Woody Shaw is great example of a CST player.

I am sure you see (hear) CST everywhere. I wonder what the thousands of guys in the guitar lesson mills for the last 30 years getting pounded with modes from day one, who never did learn to improvise jazz (after 4,000 lessons) are an example of.

I wonder why the head of I Got Rhythm still sounds "right," even when the II's and V's are major, or when it's subbed out III, bIII, II, bII, etc.

[JonnyPac]

Hey, I'm done. I gotta lady friend to take out for valentines day. No time for love, Dr. Jones!