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Is there such thing as a "zone" during imrpovisation or am I alone. In other words, if any of you folks watch or haved played sports, we all have our moments where every jump shot we take we make, or a hitter in baseball is "on fire" and can't miss, batting at least .500. We all reemember Kobe and Jordan dropping 60 points without effort. They couldn't miss!
Does this happen in improvisation, where almost EVERYTHING we hear in our heads is articulated beyond what we would have hoped, or we are unconsciously "right in the pocket?" Ya know when you get an idea, and develope its shape melodically or rhythmically and our bandmates go "yeah," chuckle or urge us on by comping more aggressively-pushing us to our limits. After words we wonder where the hell that music we just played came from and why can't we play like that every gig.
For atheletes it's muscle memory and confidence that can bring up the "zone," in which muscle memory is so accurate that it becomes effortless (this is my theory) If what Fred Hamilton told me once is right, that the guitar is just a machine to help us articulate ourselves, then flawless muscle memory and being in the zone, as well as having our aural skills in top-flight form is possilbe. I just wondered why some guys play better on some nights where they "cook" and then they may have sub-par nights. ust like atheletes who have bad games and good ones.
Any thoughts?
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12-20-2010 09:48 AM
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Yes, the zone exists. But I can't tell you how to find it. It's more a case of it finding you rather than you finding it. It just happens. The players that do this everyday for hours and hours get there a lot easier than those of us that only play for a couple of hours a day. Of course all of this is only my opinion based on my experience.
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It definitely happens, and I think the audience and the other musicians can be a big factor. Sometimes the music and the environment create an energy that takes you into....the zone. But, the more prepared you are, the better the chances are. It is a great feeling when it happens, and you wonder, was that really me? Usually everyone else can tell when it's happening, too. Don't we live for moments like that?
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"That soaring feeling, as if you'd just sailed off the edge of the fixed world with that last note and you haven't the vaguest idea where the next one is coming from or how you'll make it, but even though you'll have to do it a split second from now, you’re not worried about it!" - Unknown
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Have you read or looked at the book Effortless Mastery? It's all about the zone. The author of that book describes it very well as "feeling that the instrument is playing all by itself and all you're doing is watching."
Two years ago I would have thought it was all BS, but in the past year I've had a few practices where I've gone into that zone/space with some long solo tunes I had been working on every day for 3-4 years. It's a totally bizarre feeling. Kind of like being hypnotized or falling asleep while playing. At first you want to reprimand yourself, because it feels like you're drifting off and not paying attention to what you're doing, but then you listen and you realize it's coming out absolutely perfectly.
I think it happens most easily when you know whatever it is you're playing 100% (probably more like 200%!) inside out, are really motivated to play it, and you're able to really let go and not worry about whether you make a mistake or not.
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yeah the zone is totally there and it's a tangible thing. Clearly the goal is to always be in it. But even the greats chased it but had enough going for them that they were always able to sound like it but on those special nights.
I've been there a few times in my life where everything went just the way I wanted it to. It's an amazing feeling, more often then not it's brought about by playing with someone who is of a special talent who lifts you up above your current station just for those few minutes.
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YES! Exactly what I am talking about! I huess the zone does exist and I am not alone.
Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
It comes in spurts and I think that if you surround yourself with music at least %70 of your day and are practicing a lot or playing with better musicians, it happens. So I am not alone when I say in the past I have played lines from nowhere where I actuazlly don't even think during practice or with others! I thought I was crazy!
It always reminds me of the first time I comp raggae or blues for my students new of improvisation. I'll tell them to take the pentatonic and start simply, and they are always amazed at the melodies coming out of thier hands. They are ALWAYS without fail like "whoa, did I just play that?" It's the most LIBERATING feeling in the world
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Yes-that's the feeling! I've come across the "Efortless Mastery" book countless times in like the last decade, and have never bothered to give it a shot. If it is worth it, I will def. buy it at Borders. Originally Posted by peterk1
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Absolutely it's real. When you find it, you know it.
I always reccommend Mihaly Csikszentmihaly's (I think I got that spelling right!) works concerning creative "flow." The gist there is that the task has to be just challenging enough for the artist--too hard, and they're intimidated, to easy, and they overthink/become bored.
But when the tak is "just right," or as Mihaly alludes, just above the reach of what the artist thinks he/she is capable of--that's when the "flow" happens and the artist can create things they didn't think possible because they are completely imersed in the task at hand--and the fact the whole being needs to be immersed in order to perform allows distractions, fear, and other things to be pushed out of the way, and the artist rises to the next level.
Cool stuff.
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its a "high"...could be why performers in any medium take drugs trying to attain that state..and why many think they are in that state..when they are not..
all the metafores..."being ONE with the music" ... nirvana..samadi etc..they all are describing a state of mind where YOU are not doing anything..absence of ego..perhaps...in meditation practice...it is a level of awareness..though some will disagree...
if we pay attention to our lives...this aspect can be recognized while doing everyday tasks...driving...food shopping...or just walking around town...
its the discovery of life without thinking your in control of it..
the irony of it is...you cant make it happen...because its happening all the time..
yeah..years of self study..meditation etc..
play well
wolf
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Yes. I'm about as skeptical as it comes (I actually used to have a subscription to The Skeptical Inquirer - no joke, great magazine.) But there is some good data suggesting that there is a different mental state that people can enter through meditation. This meditation can be passive (sitting on a pillow contemplating your navel - I say this lovingly, I actually studied meditation for several years) or active (focused performance of an activity requiring deep thought and concentration.) But I tend to roll my eyes at notions of this being some mystical metaphysical state. We have many different mental states, and this is just one that we don't normally enter unless we work at it for years.
I agree with Beaumont on checking out Csikszentmihalyi's (I don't think that even he was sure how to spell it.) work on "flow," or any of the work that sprung out of it. It is probably the most systematized attempt to explain it scientifically.
I do say it exists - I've been there. How to get there? Like many have said, meditation is a good place to start - even to a skeptic like me, there is plenty of data showing that meditation helps train the mind to focus and relax better. But I think even just consistent hard work on your discipline will get you there too, it may just take a little longer.
Peace,
Kevin
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My personal experience has been... it's pretty hard to get in the zone with out some real skills, the ones you can call on under pressure, the ones that work even when your not relaxed and focusing on your whatever... Like most of the musicians I hang with... I play golf... When I make 4 or 5 birdies in a row, am I in the zone... or am I simply using my skills well... what is usually more difficult in music is that the rest of the musicians your playing with need to be in the zone... or also simply using their skills well. If it's being in the zone, then good musicians get in the zone every time they play. I'm a religious man(what ever that means) but I tend to lean more toward the existential direction in regards to performance...we create that zone. I also have no problems letting things go where they may... I realized a long time age I can barely control myself... Are we jazz guitar players... best Reg
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It's definitely worthwhile and especially if you're advanced or high intermediate because you'll recognize the symptoms that he describes and will be more open to some of the very counter-intuitive things that he proposes. Originally Posted by Jazzyteach65
There's some good lessons in there - practicing less stuff very deeply rather than moving on quickly and practicing lots of stuff; never moving on until the current things you're working on are mastered.
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There is a fifth dimension beyond that which is known to man. It is a dimension as vast as space and as timeless as infinity. It is the middle ground between light and shadow, between science and superstition, and it lies between the pit of man's fears and the summit of his knowledge. This is the dimension of imagination. It is an area which we call "The Zone".
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Oh yeah! The zone is what we all strive for as improvisers. And personally, I felt that a previous debate here on the forum was basically one that touched upon this topic, only to result in equivocation surrounding the term itself. (indeed, the 'zone' is what I interpreted from someone's comment that "if you have to think about it, you can't play it...).
Yet, what about the great jazz improvisers? Are they always in the zone? If this state of mind is not attainable every single moment one is playing, then what explains those great players, where it seems that every note emitted from their instrument seemingly finds its origin from this ideal state of mind?
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Good evening, all...
From my (perhaps limited...) experience, I think that we are in the realm of the unconscious here, as opposed to conscious. It is by nature elusive, although there are circumstances more likely to induce it. I'm not sure that there is any 'level' of technicity required, as even as a beginner (or close...) I've had such moments. I would suggest that relaxation helps (that's where the 'not thinking' comes in, meaning not consciously thinking, or concentrating, but rather letting one's own unconscious take the helm. An analogy, perhaps? When learning to drive, one is taken up by synchronising the gear shifting (reduce the throttle, left foot down, slide to next gear, left foot up, pick up throttle etc...). The first hill start takes some concentration. Much repetition later, and the gestes become reflexes. Then comes the test: a sharper bend than expected, or an obstacle whist overtaking, and the unconscious makes those changes much faster than our conscious mind. Once it's over, we might shake for a while with emotion.
Similarly, whilst playing, a fellow band member could spring a surprise. If the reflexes are up to it, adrenaline will 'inspire' you to respond better than your 'normal' state would suggest. Doesn't work every time (road accident stats show us that...), and it's difficult to 'trick' oneself into the state artificially. Playing with 'wicked' minded colleagues can help; ready to push over the edge (and why not do it to them, now and again? No place for boredom...). The more technical skills acquired, the higher level of partners needed to be able to stretch one's limits.
Personally I have (almost...) never surprised myself to such an extent when playing alone (exception being meditating whilst drumming; never on guitar...), but I suppose it could be possible.
In short: a relaxed state, a shock, stimulates the unconscious to play better than the conscious mind. Once 'thinking' comes back to the fore (or is that a contradiction..?), the 'fleeting glimpse' is over. Time to shake with emotion, and wonder where that came from.
Others may see things differently, of course, but that's how I've had those rare moments.
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(sigh) I hate to get into this again, but IMHO, there can still be thinking involved. The point of the "zone" is that it gets all thought about the basics and extraneous thought is removed. Originally Posted by Dad3353
But that is just one aspect of driving. You are still thinking. You are thinking, "Is that lady going to cross the street, or can I go?" "Do I have time to make that light?" "Do I have room to pass?" "Am I supposed to turn here?" "Do I need gas or can that wait until tomorrow?" You are not driving around aimlessly without thought or direction. There is still plenty to think about. I would agree that the "zone" is unreachable if you are struggling with the minutia of technique (both physical and musical), but there are still larger concepts on which to focus your attention. Originally Posted by Dad3353
Again, I don't remember Csikszentmihalyi's work on "flow" (the closest thing to science on this subject) mention anything about "not thinking." It does mentioned being focused and not being distracted (among many other things.) I think that the word "focus" implies thinking. What are you focusing if not your thoughts? It also contradicts my experience - anytime I've been "in the zone" I have been thinking about the topic at hand, albeit at a much greater level of focus, attention, and transcendent calm and joy. The state I experienced match pretty well what Csikszentmihalyi described as the 10 qualities of flow state. There is a nice summary on Wikipedia for anyone not familiar with "flow." Originally Posted by Dad3353
Flow (psychology) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Others may have had other experiences, but what I have experienced follows what Csikszentmihalyi wrote pretty closely.
Peace,
KevinLast edited by ksjazzguitar; 12-20-2010 at 11:04 PM.
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I remember when Spanky saved his paper route money for a whole month, so he could paddle out into the bayou and pay Granny Kulupzi to make him a charm, so he could be "in the zone" all the time when he played his clarinet.
She took an old clarinet reed, frog urine, mockingbird blood, and toe nail clippings, wrapped them in mud and put it in an old sock, and put a spell on it. She told Spanky to sleep with it under his pillow.
One night we were up late reading comics and we kept hearing a funny noise coming out of Spanky's clarinet case, so we opened it up, and the dang clarinet was playing itself! We were so scared that we burned the clarinet and threw the ashes in the swamp.
DO NOT mix voodoo and music! I told the Spankster that it would have been a lot cheaper to just give up the extra 50 cents and take some extra lessons from Mr. Haney at the music shop. It still gives me the willies when I think about it. We weren't surprised when we heard what happened to Mrs. Johnson's son Robert.
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Yeah, I'm wondering the same thing. I think Reg put it best; when players who are around thier instruments and the musc well enough and has enough technique, technique DOES=muscle memory, a point where the mind and the hands are in unision, and one doesn't have to rely on Originally Posted by orasnon
"licks" to get them out of a jam, one who canb take chances and react to the chances taken by the band, they are SO conscious at the moment in time, that NOTHING seems forced. You can acutually see Trane with Monk do this. His lines cascaded in reaction to Monk's "surprises" and he was never lost, even though he said he felt like he was falling down an empty elevator shaft with Monk.
There HAS to be some nuerological sensation when this happens. There is a study that had hooked up players heads to electrodes at some university. They weren't jazz players, and were asked to play the c scale at a piano and react to the comping they heard through earphones. The brain waves changed SIGNIFICANTLY, signaling that the area of the brain that deals with percpetion, aura and unexplained "lights up" when one solos.
I would like to see that report again. tHIS is a healthy convo, gentlemen!
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Oh yes, there is definitely a "zone" when you are playing well...totally relaxed, laying in the groove, not worrying about the notes, hearing everything in the moment...I can get into the "zone/flow" playing bass..but then again I have been playing bass for 30 years...so IMHO it is definitely a function of technical skills, knowledge, musicianship, and confidence on your instrument.
For me it is not "not thinking"...quite the opposite..it is clarity of thought or prescient thinking....tough to describe in words...but you will know when you are there, if only for a moment..
What a great thread....
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Think What You May
A long time ago, my father and I were watching The Grand Ole Opry on TV. The players on the back line seemed to having a conversation during the show. My father wondered what they were talking about.
A few years ago I became friends with a Sonny Thomas, a great guitarist from Nashville who was a friend of Leon Rhodes, the Opry's staff guitarist for many years. Sonny raves about Leon's playing. He said that one night they were on stage together after having worked on Leon's car earlier in the afternoon. During one of Leon's scorching solos, he leaned over and said, "Sonny, what did we set the gap in valves on that Volkswagen?"
Sonny said, "Twelve thousandths."
The flow is real, and it can be had no matter what the mind is doing. Leon Rhodes was so hot and so practiced that it didn't matter what he was thinking about; he just cooked.
No Breath, No Thought
I do inlay artwork on guitars. The detail is small-scale and challenging. I have found that when I am thinking, even thinking about what I'm doing, the level of accuracy goes down. It's the kind of task (the cutting and routing) that goes best by just observing and reacting as you go. Even breathing screws it up. I pause to breath. And I've noticed that while I'm not breathing, I'm also not thinking; at least, if a thought comes, the impulse is so faint (as if I were meditating) that it doesn't interfere with my perception.
I'm able to approach the zone by relaxing and working with the least possible effort. Of course, in cases like this, technique is important. It's not a job that comes naturally. It takes practice and forethought to adhere to the procedures that work. But during the execution, no thought is required.
Thoughts Against A Background Of Silence
I think this is the most common experience of the zone. It's not that we don't think, but that the mind is settled. Thoughts come easily. We are not distracted. Between those thoughts, the mind is in no rush to go anyplace else. This is concentration I guess, but it doesn't take any effort. I wish it was always that easy.
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I had NEVER heard of Leon until now. Then I found "Thumbs" Originally Posted by kenbennett
GREAT STUFF!
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More importantly, have your measles cleared up yet? Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
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sure, it exists.
your body must be relaxed. your mind must be focused yet relaxed, and confident. it takes skill and prepration.
one thing is certain, one can certainly tell when a player is NOT in the zone.
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Although this is a book about drawing, I have applied the concepts to my music & improvisational skills, & it really works:
Learn to Draw: Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain.
This is not some superstition or pseudo-religious belief but an actual practice that can increase the frequency of your times in "the zone", & can even deepen those experiences. Again, this is not a mystical concept at all, but a mental excercize. I think the fact that it is so deeply satisfying leads people to diefy the experience.
I have more to say on the subject but I really need another cup of coffee right now!
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