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Dark star: I hear what youre saying...but to me this seems to be a profoundly subjective experience, and how one analyzes it depends largely upon one's individual perspective regarding the mind/body connection, or one's personal beliefs regarding his/her relation to the "super-empirical" dimension of human existence. An atheist or agnostic might think of it in terms of "relaxation" or analyze it viewed through a physicalist interpretive optic (e.g., 'brainwaves" or what have you), and might stop there...
Other more religious-minded will believe this ideal state of mind to be indissociably connected with the transcendental. Let's not forget that many great musicians/improvisers/composers/artists were quite mystical. Coltrane, Scriabin, McLaughlin, Tolstoy,...the list goes on. Even Pat Martino, as analytic as his approach purports to be, acknowledges the influence of the Tao Te Ching in his approach to music....
In any case, thanks for the reading suggestion - I plan to explore it
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12-23-2010 07:21 PM
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Transcendental, yes. Not necessarily religious. Spiritual, yes, if you interpret it that way.
Originally Posted by orasnon
Dark star: I hear what youre saying...but to me this seems to be a profoundly subjective experience, and how one analyzes it depends largely upon one's individual perspective regarding the mind/body connection, or one's personal beliefs regarding his/her relation to the "super-empirical" dimension of human existence. An atheist or agnostic might think of it in terms of "relaxation" or analyze it viewed through a physicalist interpretive optic (e.g., 'brainwaves" or what have you), and might stop there...
Other more religious-minded will believe this ideal state of mind to be indissociably connected with the transcendental. Let's not forget that many great musicians/improvisers/composers/artists were quite mystical. Coltrane, Scriabin, McLaughlin, Tolstoy,...the list goes on. Even Pat Martino, as analytic as his approach purports to be, acknowledges the influence of the Tao Te Ching in his approach to music....
In any case, thanks for the reading suggestion - I plan to explore it
As you say, it's a matter of perspective, or more precisely--I would say--, perception. The settled mind that I spoke of, the one that experiences silence between faint mental impulses, is indeed connected to the transcendental.
That's the real flow, the deep flow. The flow that can't be forced.
In all experience the flow is there. It may be choppy or partial, and it can be a fragile state. But it's real.
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yeah man, it's the flow. do you have the flow? do they have the flow?
it's the flow man.
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Betty Edwards! I love this book. Originally Posted by Dark Star
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I've met guys who thought smoking weed helped put them in the zone, but it seemed like "zoned out" describes it better.
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I feel like I get into a good musical "zone" more often than not these days after years of feeling pretty horrible after each performance. As I have grown comfortable with all of the basic concepts of improvisation, applied them to my ear and guitar, practiced hard, slept with them in my head, I have come to a place of comfort and creativity. I sound like myself, and that is a good feeling to start the gig with!
Big tip:I try not to psyche myself out. As soon as I think I need to impress someone (especially another guitarist) my playing goes to heck. I work in a guitar store and every 16 year old kid that comes in is bent on fast shredding metal stuff. I realized that I can't shred to save my life! They burn on the guitar in drop D with a simple minor scale it ways that I will never have the will or patience to bother with. I can solo through Giant Steps in a creative way, but they don't get it, and are not impressed in the slightest. I'm just playing silly jazz swing notes to them, I guess. If I let it bother me, I seize up. Nowadays, I just let it go and enjoy playing as I do.
The book Music the Brain and Ecstasy has a lot to say about the brain, consciousness, and actual performance. We are musical feedback loops of information! Check it out. It's a great read.
Cheers.
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I know exactly how you feel. In fact one of my students can shred light years beyond me, and he's only 14. He has the whole sweep/tap thing down. I showed him arps, scales, cells and tools to help him sweep and over the last two years he has put in the work to apply them to metal sweeping and shredding and phrasing. ALL he did was work on it until it became his own, and that taught me that anyone who works on it can achieve "metal shredding" by working (esp. with classical etudes!) Originally Posted by JonnyPac
However, I am know good and well if I were to walk into a music store, sit down and play through changes, I could get by with playing one note or simple melodic ideas that 1. swing and 2. are a creative expressive that articulates the heart and brain, not a bunch of mindless muscle-memory shredding. Jim Hall and Grant Green have said more with fewer notes than most shred-head kids do in thier life.
These are all good books you guys are listing! I need to go book shopping!
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Lol. Thanks, JT65. I feel ya. I love Grant Green! He's the Miles Davis improviser of the guitar IMFO. I hope you enjoy the reads. Best to ya!
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As soon as I think I need to impress someone (especially another guitarist) my playing goes to heck. I work in a guitar store and every 16 year old kid that comes in is bent on fast shredding metal stuff. I realized that I can't shred to save my life! They burn on the guitar in drop D with a simple minor scale it ways that I will never have the will or patience to bother with. I can solo through Giant Steps in a creative way, but they don't get it, and are not impressed in the slightest.
and they should not be impressed...its another world to them..as shredding is to yours..they dont have any value invested in jazz...speed and FX are the highest values in the music they listen to..
its not that hard to do..as you noted..its just investing the time and effort...just as learning giant steps...
you cant get in the "zone" if your competing with your ego as who is the better player..your fighting yourself...much like trying to be in two places at once...both player and listener...as i noted in my origional post on this topic...the "zone" is happening all the time you just cant take your ego there..wow..dig me..fast fingers freddy...yeah..so what..
it turns into a war game...and all your ability and knowledge are used to impress someone for a few seconds...and it usually ends in disappointment as the other person is too busy to listen to you..they are getting ready to "impress" you...
its good to see this dynamic though...saves time and energy..
play well
wolf
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Yeah, I hear ya Wolf. After the last six months of overhearing kids shed demo each other, I just tune it out and don't care. I don't play in front of customers unless they ask for a gear demo. I can barley pretend to exhibit ego in my playing; I am not demonstrative as a guitarist in any way. I am more concerned with being a nice person who encourages others to pursue creative outlets in a sincere way.
I get in the zone a lot as mentioned in my first post. It's not like I am a master of the universe, it's just the feeling of real-time creativity flowing uninterrupted by negativity or logistical concerns. It's good.
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I happen to be reading a lot on the modern Skeptic movement and "metaphysical naturalism" in the last few years. I feel like it has influenced my life and music in quite a few significant ways actually. Perhaps I'll start a thread on something of the sort. Could be interesting... Originally Posted by ksjazzguitar
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Always interesting. Not sure how to tie it in with jazz guitar. I guess that it effects my epistemology and therefore affects how I think of abstract and philosophical topics. Originally Posted by JonnyPac
Peace,
Kevin
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Originally Posted by wolflen
This is SO correct. When I say "in the zone" behind a comper who recognizes that you have a "good" idea and helps push you to your heights )like a friend helping you stand back up after you've fallen) this isn't in a conpetitive manner. I personally believe cutting sessions are fun, but guitar duels and showmanship are stupid. One must alwyas remind oneself what the main purpose of music is: to express yourself, not compete. Relaxation is key. Think about this: we've ALL had our moments playing with friends, and we stumle upon an idea, exploit the idea, shape it, call and respond with it ect. Then the comper says something like yeah" and comps to support your idea and help you develope it. Where you "competing" then? No!
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Going back to the original post, I think the sports analogy is poorly chosen. The 'hot hand' myth in basketball was debunked 25 years ago. You can read it for yourself at the following link
http://www.psych.cornell.edu/sec/pub...ne.Tversky.pdf
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Originally Posted by markerhodes
The study makes sense, but
1.it's outdated and
2. there is a state of suconsciousness where we get so used to doing a particular thing, that our muscle memory neurologically works to perform the same movement repetitively to where it becomes second nature-JUST like driving a car without looking at the wheel or checking the mail without trying to find which box is yours-ecause the memory is there, and we are in the "zone"
For basketball players, withion the flow of a game, not practicing alone-because practicing alone, we all knock down two or three jumpers and then we ecome "automatic" breifly, two things must occur for a players shots to continually fall:
balance, that is the catch-and-shoot rhythm, the jumpshot off-the-dribble balance (the body must be squared up) and rhythm/timing and muscle memory. There is NO DOUBT that when these things are present, muscle memory makes your shot highly likely to go in.
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If we're talking basketball, my authority on the "zone" (as opposed to supposedly having a "hot hand") is Bill Russell - here's what he said in his book:
“Every so often a Celtic game would heat up so that it became more than a physical or even mental game, and would be magical. The feeling is difficult to describe, and I certainly never talked about it when I was playing. When it happened I could feel my play rise to a new level. At that special level all sorts of odd things happened. It was almost as if we were playing in slow motion. During those spells I could almost sense how the next play would develop and where the next shot would be taken. Even before the other team brought the ball in bounds, I could feel it so keenly that I'd want to shout to my teammates, ‘It's coming there!’—except that I knew everything would change if I did.”
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Originally Posted by Solo Flight
I almost wanted to use this quote myself. Russ is my favorite athelete of all time. His quote is genuine and so is Bill. I was fortunate enough to meet him in person at the All-Star festivities here in Vegas when All-Star weekend was here. I saw him pass by in the loby at around 9 am at the Mirage casino, where the press events/fan fare was held. I said to him "there goes the greatest athelete of all time,." Of coruse I was shaking with reverence. He simply smiled, waved it off and walked away.I will NEVER forget that. The man is the most decorated athelete in American history, and he is still humble enough to laugh off someone calling him "the greatest"
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>>>>If we're talking basketball, my authority on the "zone" (as opposed to supposedly having a "hot hand") is Bill Russell - here's what he said in his book:<<<<<
Bill Russell was a great player but this quote doesn't help the 'zone' cause at all because nothing here speaks to results. That athletes / performers *feel*that everything is flowing is not in dispute; the question is whether when they feel that way they are actually playing better than normally. That's why you have to look at the results---to the results of shots taken in basketball and with music, a playback of the performance.
We've all played when we thought that everything was perfect only to realize later that it was nothing special, and we've all struggled to get to the end of some things that, upon playback, sound magical. Our feelings are unreliable guides to how well we're doing.
Look at it this way: if the zone is rare, how is it that Bill Russell was a great player consistently?
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I guess maybe that’s the point – that the zone is completely an internal phenomenon. From the outside, one’s performance might not look any different, particularly if we’re talking about someone who performs (whether it be jazz or basketball) on a consistently high level. But from the inside, maybe the zone is where it all seems (or, in fact, is) so much more effortless than usual. And for those of us who are not Bill Russell or Wes Montgomery, maybe our version of the zone doesn’t quite produce results on their level, but rather just on a higher level than we’re used to – along with that feeling of effortlessness. Originally Posted by markerhodes
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Exactly-Someone who is unfamiliar with improvised music will observe the Originally Posted by Solo Flight
"mindless shredder" playing scaler exercises and see the intuitive "jazzer" creatin far deeper, personal organic melodies and can be in "the zone" but it would not appear that way to the person unfamiliar with improv, and that person would assume that both guitarists are on the same "level" as far as if they feel they are in the "zone." One might not be able from the outside to tell if another is in the zone, because IMHO the "zone" is more a personal high than a collective
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+1 _drawing on the right side of the brain_. Great book. So much of the analylitical, left-brain thinking involved in LEARNING jazz could really inhibit getting into flow when PERFORMING. Great read for artists of any discipline.
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Back to Csikszentmihaly: Originally Posted by markerhodes
There has to be a few things at work for a person to reach the "zone" (again, what Mihay called "Flow")
Now, first--a caveat--the concept of flow applied to creative endeavors, not athletics, but I think you can carry the concept over--here's why.
Principal 1: The artist(player) must have practiced hours and hours already. There has to be things in the artist's brain they know they can do, and do well. There also has to be some other stuff even beyond what the artist knows they can do--knowledge, skill, whatever, that they've absorbed but have not been able to tap in to.
In Short, you have to bust your ass and know your shit before this happens--"flow" is not just "spacing out" and creating what sounds beautiful in your own little world--it's "hyperfocus" if you will, where you are heightened in your sense of awareness of what is around you (see how that could apply to a basketball player?) but also able to focus all of your energy on the task at hand. A visual artist may have less things around them to concentrate on, but a jazz improviser certainly must hear the other members of the group, and a basketball player must have good court sense.
2. The task has to be just challenging enough--too much, no good, not enough, no good. Regular Joe's like us don't hit the zone as often because we're not being challenged consistently the way many pros are. THis is one reason why people say it's important to play with people better than you--it makes you step it up. Bill Russell had professional players around him and went up against professional players every night. Miles Davis had friggin' Wayne SHorter, Herbie Hancock, Ron Carter, and Tony Williams on stage with him at the same time! The higher the level of challenge, the more the player has to "rise to the occasion." Now, put me on stage with that Miles quintet and I flounder--they're still too far ahead of me. But they, and Miles, and Russell all started out playing with others, and their "level" kept increasing, to the point of where they were challenged but not overchallenged every time they stepped on stage/the court. Each set/quarter was a chance for flow.
If for some reason a quintet of absolute greats had the patience to let me sit in with them for a few months, I have no doubt the level of my "game" would raise. The first few weeks would likely be painful, mind you!!!
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WE COMEPLTELY FORGOT THE EAST INDIAN CONCEPT OF "TOGETHERNESS!!!" Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
There is a concept in Hindustani music called "sawaal-javaa," where communication and call-response COMEPLETELY improvised at a heightened state of spiritual/awareness happens.
Here is a small taste of where the communication takes place. Keep in mind that two voices can become one and climax though hours of improv in Subcontinental musics! This "zone" becomes transcendental and can be used for meditations. Musicians finish each other's phrases, it becomes scary how well articulated the conversation becomes between two people, they reach the pinnacle of the zone (I'm sure it has a Sanskrit name) together. They raise each other's "game" and energy/awareness
Last edited by Jazzyteach65; 12-28-2010 at 12:34 PM.
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I have had two "in the zone moments" in my musical career that I can recall clearly because they were most recent.
The first was at a Jazz Improv. class recital and I was playing "On Green Dolphin Street". Basically, it was the tune I was least comfortable with, but I was in a state of mind where I did not care what came out in front of all these people. The cognitive process went like this :
(HOLYCRAP,WHATTHELLAMIPLAYINGRIGHTNOWTHISISSOCOOLAA AAAAAAAAAHHHHHH)
I received a really great reaction from the audience after my solo and my teacher actually pounded his chest with his fist and extended his arm towards me, so I know it wasn't just in my head, lol.
The Second situation was when my college's big band had to play the last recital of the year. All the seats were packed and they had to make room for others. I was the featured soloist on a blues and when my solo came up, I somehow worked into this motif that I rode out for 3 chorus and at the end it was like an explosion. I got a great reaction from the audience then as well.
For both situations, I was at my boiling point in anger because my ex is a whore.
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You're my hero right now. Pretty awesome. Originally Posted by Silence
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