guide tones

[zamar]

I'd like to learn more about guide tones, and how to use them. So beam me up, Scotty.

[mr. beaumont]

topic should be moved to the improv forum? maybe it'll get more traffic...

[mr. beaumont]

but to give this topic a little push (and i'm no expert on guide tones, but as i understand them, it's all about tension and resoultion)

so, look at this




---------------------------------------------
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---7--6----------------------------------------
---6--5---------------------------------------
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think about that as being the essence of a Bb7 going to an Eb7 in a blues. so in the first note pair, we have a seventh on the bottom and a third on top. when we move to the next chord, those voices reverse roles. now the third is on the bottom, seventh on top. in approaching a improv over these, understanding where this movement goes can help create tension of release in your line (center on the third for a smooth flow, seventh for more tension)

but to me, the whole idea of guide tones is most important to just notice in the melodic movement in a progression...not something to overthink, IMHO.

[aPAULo]

Yea as far as I understand guide tones, they are the tension notes that you then resolve. Somewhat like chromatics. Im not totally sure though.

[seanlowe]

Guide tones are notes in 2 chords which are a step or half step away from each other in each chord i thought? so like mr beaumonts above, but there are more aswell depending on each change...

[Dirk]

Guide tones are the most important notes of a chord, namely the 3rd and 7th. It are the notes that determine if a chord is major, minor or dominant. All other notes don't change anything to the quality of the chord, what they do is add color.

More about the use of guide tones and voice leading here:
http://www.jazzguitar.be/voice_leading.html

- Dirk

[wizard3739]

Dirkji is absolutely correct! The guide tones are absolutely essential for good bebop lines to outline a chordal approach. They are not nearly as important in a modal song approach to improvisation because you usually spend a lot of time (several bars) improvising on each chord in the tune. When you think about it, IMHO the listener would become a little bored with the sound and perhaps a more interesting approach would be using several motifs based on the modal key centers of the song.

[Altered Domenic]

Guide tones are the most important notes of a chord, namely the 3rd and 7th. It are the notes that determine if a chord is major, minor or dominant. All other notes don't change anything to the quality of the chord, what they do is add color.

More about the use of guide tones and voice leading here:
http://www.jazzguitar.be/voice_leading.html

- Dirk

Right !! ...and if you're soloing it's a good thing to melodically connect them through the changes. Chromaticism is always good.

[tehsuperfox]

There's no need to repeat what everyone else has said, so here are some guide tones I wrote out for a C blues. Hope this helps (and sorry for the large image).

[Altered Domenic]

There's no need to repeat what everyone else has said, so here are some guide tones I wrote out for a C blues. Hope this helps (and sorry for the large image).

...oh I see.
So as you so very politely put it,
" There's no need to repeat what everyone else has said "
Well never mind apologising for the large image, but I'd suggest you keep your own large image where it belongs.
Point one : Is there anyhthing so seriously wrong with confirming a correct observation for the site members who perhaps may not even know what guide tones are ? Perhaps not.
Point 2 : Guide tones ( notes ) as you will no doubt know are used MELODICALLY as well as harmonically.
And that's why I mentioned thier valubale use in improv and soloing.
But hey tehsuperfox, sincerest apologies, how will I ever live it down ?
I'm about to take some divine " guidence " from above and I'm outa here forever.

[tehsuperfox]

I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at. When I said that, what I meant was that I didn't need to say what everybody already had - good, accurate information was posted and I was in agreement with it. I meant there was no need for me to repeat everything. There's nothing wrong with an confirmation to a correct post, as you said.

I wasn't aiming my post at anyone, I was just trying to contribute with an example I thought might be helpful. If I offended anyone in the process, I apologize because that was not my intent.

[mr. beaumont]

...oh I see.
So as you so very politely put it,
" There's no need to repeat what everyone else has said "
Well never mind apologising for the large image, but I'd suggest you keep your own large image where it belongs.
Point one : Is there anyhthing so seriously wrong with confirming a correct observation for the site members who perhaps may not even know what guide tones are ? Perhaps not.
Point 2 : Guide tones ( notes ) as you will no doubt know are used MELODICALLY as well as harmonically.
And that's why I mentioned thier valubale use in improv and soloing.
But hey tehsuperfox, sincerest apologies, how will I ever live it down ?
I'm about to take some divine " guidence " from above and I'm outa here forever.

good riddance. i for one was sick of your combatative attitude. and in this post i can't even tell what you're trying to say, but the line "i'd suggest you keep your own large image where it belongs" was enough to prove to me you have no interest in an intellectual conversation. superfox was trying to help.

[pete]

I wasn't aiming my post at anyone, I was just trying to contribute with an example I thought might be helpful. If I offended anyone in the process, I apologize because that was not my intent.

It IS helpful, and thank you so much for taking the time to write it up, scan it and post it here. I am very grateful for your effort.

[wizard3739]

"I'm about to take some divine " guidence (sp) " from above and I'm outa here forever."

YAY!! Ahhhh, Don't let the door bang you in the .....LOL

Thanks Mr. Beaumont for saying what many of us were thinking.

[Butch]

I tried to make peace in a previous thread, but after reading this thread I agree with Mr. Beaumont and Wizard - good riddance.

I enjoy the fair exchange of ideas and the opennes of a lot of folks on this forum. I also expect people to speak up and write any disagreements they may have with me. So far "most" have been polite and I appreciate that. As so many have previously stated...thanks to anyone who takes the time to post or share information on this forum. It is all good.

-Butch

[Mark Fowler]

OK... now that the dust has settled... let's get back to our regularly scheduled program on Guide Tones!

I understand the IDEA behind this... track the 3s and 7s... and that chart for a C blues shows that nicely.

Now... can someone show me the next step on how to USE this idea? Maybe someone can post a snippet or two of some lines that were built using these guide tones for this C blues?

Thanks in advance!

[wizard3739]

Hiya Mark,

The best example I can think of is to get a copy of "All The Things You Are" and analyze the melody line with reference to the chord progression. This is a good exercise and will show clearly the way the author/songwriter used guide tones. The principle for improvising is the same. As a musical goal, I try to get to the guide tones (my targets) using scales, arpeggios, intervals or anything my ear likes. Always keep in mind your audience will want to identify with the melody so try to keep bits and pieces of the melody in your improvisation. best wishes

[Mark Fowler]

The best example I can think of is to get a copy of "All The Things You Are" and analyze the melody line with reference to the chord progression. This is a good exercise and will show clearly the way the author/songwriter used guide tones.

Wizard,

Thanks! Sounds like a good exercise to study melodies to get ideas for solos. I'll head to my fake book as soon as I get home from work!

I've been playing around with this guide tone idea for Sweet Georgia Brown where the chords go around the circle of 5ths as dominants.... I've discovered that the 7th of the current chord is one note away from the 3rd of the next chord... (e.g., C of the D7 drops down to the B of the G7). So I've been trying out phrases that end on the 7th then drop it down to the 3rd of the next chord to start the next phrase. Am I starting to get the idea?

[tehsuperfox]

Wizard,

Thanks! Sounds like a good exercise to study melodies to get ideas for solos. I'll head to my fake book as soon as I get home from work!

I've been playing around with this guide tone idea for Sweet Georgia Brown where the chords go around the circle of 5ths as dominants.... I've discovered that the 7th of the current chord is one note away from the 3rd of the next chord... (e.g., C of the D7 drops down to the B of the G7). So I've been trying out phrases that end on the 7th then drop it down to the 3rd of the next chord to start the next phrase. Am I starting to get the idea?

Yes, this is a very good exercise. A lot of the time my teacher makes me take a solo using nothing but arpeggios - but the first note of ever bar must be the 3rd of the current chord, and the last note of every bar must be the 7th of the current chord. It can be pretty tricky, but you might also want to try that.

[wizard3739]

Yes Mark, you are on the right track. I would recommend that you use the following steps for your initial guide tone studies:

1) Pick a good (lots of changes) tune and learn the melody and the chords. "All The Thing You Are" is perfect for this.

2) Record the changes for at least 4 or 5 choruses at a fairly slow tempo (Treat it like a ballad) Do not use rhythm , let each chord ring for its full time value. (your ear will hear the harmony of the chord best in this manner) Gradually increase the tempo by re-recording the chord progressions of the song.

3) Play along with your recording using the guide tones as targets as discussed previously for at least one hour per day. Play mostly inside the key center and use scales, arpeggios and intervals in every position you can remember for this study.

4) As soon as you become comfortable playing this tune, change the key and repeat this process. You should try to learn to play the song in several other keys because this approach will eventually give you an excellent familiarity with the fingerboard along with some very good ear training.

5) Although this type of study seems to be long and involved, after you do 3 or 4 tunes in this way, it becomes much, much easier and will greatly increase your ability to hear and play melodic lines.

[mrencanto]

I've recently got learning about targets and guide tones in soloing after realising that much of my single note playing is very aimless. I also tried transposing a few solos/licks (mainly Wes) and found that while I could (just about) play the notes, I couldn't really understand 'what was going on' - even though there clearly was a structure to the improvisation.

I found the 2-5-1 lesson on the below link to be particularly useful in explaining some of the many different approaches to resolve a 2-5-1 so what I'm playing implies or leads the chord changes rather than just 'not sounding out of key'.

Although this lesson is related to 2-5 changes, I find the same thing applies in other changes and by working out what note I'm aiming for the next change (usually the 3 or 7, but not always) I can get a basic structure around a line that I can then play about with - delaying or anticipating, approaching chromatically or surrounding. Enough to keep me busy for the next 5 years I expect.

Fender Players Club - Jazz Cafe

[John Curran]

mrencanto, cool link! Thanks for posting.

regards
john

[gravyTrain]

...so what I'm playing implies or leads the chord changes rather than just 'not sounding out of key'.

That is a great way to phrase what a solo should do. It can go along for the ride, or TAKE the changes somewhere magical - and Wes does that incredibly well.

It also is worth mentioning that this mentality transcends all genre's of music. The best heavy metal, rock, blues, jazz etc. solo's all take you somewhere, rather than going in circles.

[m78w]

It seems like everyone is diggin on the 3rd and 7th guide tones so I thought I'd post some other guide tones that boppers and hard boppers like to use.

The first page is the guide tones layed out on a 2-5-1 in C, then the second page is lines that are built off of these ideas.

I used the guide tones in a "strict" manner, where each guide tones leads to the next guide tone on the following chord, and I used all of the guide tones in this manner in each line. Of course in real life one could use some of these guide tones, or combinations of them, and displace them rhythmically so they don't always fall right on the chord change.

MW

[604bourne123]

looking at the dates of these posts here we are 2o11 most of the post are 2007 well that is a long time and it is as true as ever now
I think guide tones are another discipline to practice . or to say Iam reading and listening.