The key center approach

**Reg** · 10-01-2010, 11:01 AM

There are standard characteristic notes, intervals and resolutions for all chords or harmonic movement...Depending on what context your playing in usually helps you decide how basic or complex you need to be. How you imply harmonic or vertical movement while not compromising your melodic or horizontal statement is one of the skills of soloing. There are as many ways to imply... as there are soloist, well maybe more soloist. Practice with out back-up track etc... and you'll find your ways, or at least techniques you like... Best Reg

**Reg** · 10-01-2010, 11:11 AM

Hey Jayx123 I'll try and post some solo improve and imply changes etc... I don't have the posting thing together, but I'll get my son to set me up...
Best Reg

**jayx123** · 10-01-2010, 12:19 PM

Originally Posted by merseybeat

Why! Your original is very nice and I heard it! Thing is when you play with rythmn and feel like you do then chord tones are masked but relevent (i.e. without the backing its hard to place them unless you are playing straight 8's or 16's)! Also remember that so many jazz tunes share the same structure!

Love your sound too Jay! Whats the setup?

Respect man

Eddie

Thanks Eddie, I thought I'd give it another chance, because when I studied it, t was just to hard for me but I'm always on the look out to learn something new. I have already played around with it today and man its hard! like all the freedom I had with the key center approach just when away, so much thinking, but this is practice and how it should be i guess.

my set up is a Hamer jazz 5 archtop with classic 57s pups and also a rose wood bridge which i replaced the tune-o-matic which came with the guitar. I use my old Yamaha jx30 amp which I love.

**Gramps** · 10-01-2010, 12:38 PM

Key centers are the most intuitive and easiest way for me to solo but if I'm not careful it can sound like Im just noodleing around. Lately I've been concentrating on working out of chord shapes and playing lines that reflect substitutions of the songs chord changes. This is adding a lot more interesting ideas, harmonically.

**merseybeat** · 10-01-2010, 02:34 PM

Originally Posted by Gramps

Key centers are the most intuitive and easiest way for me to solo but if I'm not careful it can sound like Im just noodleing around. Lately I've been concentrating on working out of chord shapes and playing lines that reflect substitutions of the songs chord changes. This is adding a lot more interesting ideas, harmonically.

Totally agree Gramps! So why not use both! Theres a lot of milage using the key center approach! Especially when it comes to building up a solo from a simple motif etc!

Jay any chance you can upload that take complete with the backing ! I love your sound man!

Eddie

**jayx123** · 10-01-2010, 02:49 PM

sure:
howhigh.mp3 - File Shared from Box.net - Free Online File Storage

here is also giant steps using key center approach (with little bit of coltrane cells) :
gsb.mp3 - File Shared from Box.net - Free Online File Storage

**Gramps** · 10-01-2010, 03:05 PM

Merseybeat,

Why not use both, indeed. You wouldn't paint a picture with only one color. Use all the tools available. As I learn more I'll have more things to fall back on. That's why I love playing music.....Instant gratification when a piece of the puzzle falls into place.

**docbop** · 10-01-2010, 03:25 PM

Originally Posted by merseybeat

Totally agree but always know where your chord is! Thats JB's advice too!
In fact JB uses the term "picture" not keycenter! I think there is a lot more in the word "Picture"!

Eddie

That's the whole point no matter if you call them Shapes, Scales, Modes, Patterns, its seeing the available notes inside and out. Then know where the arp's are within that picture as chord tones, targets, resolutions, etc. A lot of way of interpreting this, but basically your seeing the fretboard of possibilities of the moment.

**merseybeat** · 10-01-2010, 04:55 PM

Actually I love Jimmy Bruno's old way! "It was one of these" or "It was one of them" lol, JB's humor is also addictive!

Eddie

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 10-01-2010, 05:08 PM

After reading all these posts I'm getting a little confused as to what people mean by "the key-centred approach". Take All The Things You Are as an example. You could say the first five measures are in Ab and the next three measures are in C. But no one is claiming that's all you need to improvise well over those 8 measures? I'd say it's necessary but not sufficient.

**wizard3739** · 10-01-2010, 06:31 PM

Jay, IMHO, your tone is really good and your technique is obviously quite good but neither the melody nor the harmony were implied for my ear. In this case, "less is more" and and more chord tones would possibly get you a better solo. I admit my thoughts are based on very old techniques and sounds with more of the melody implied.

wiz

**bass2man** · 10-01-2010, 07:36 PM

Great thread....

When first starting out to I tried the scale/arp method to chords and it was just to much to assimilate..so I went to the Tonal center approach and it worked a lot better for me to be able to solo over a tune...taugh me to shift positions smoothly from one ket to the next.

I think it is maybe more of a launching ppoint to use to learn moving from simple to more "color" in one's soloing...I am now adding arps from the root,third,fifth and seventh of the chords to get the upper extensions and using more blues scales, bebop scales and Harmonic minor scales (tried the MM scale but that one is tough to hear for me at this point) to get more color..

I do find that if I am practicing a more complex tune e.g. FOUR, I go back to the tonal center approach and then start adding more color as I get comfortable with the tune.

First steps in a long journey that is jazz guitar...

This sure would be easier if I had any talent...

**jayx123** · 10-03-2010, 03:08 AM

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

After reading all these posts I'm getting a little confused as to what people mean by "the key-centred approach". Take All The Things You Are as an example. You could say the first five measures are in Ab and the next three measures are in C. But no one is claiming that's all you need to improvise well over those 8 measures? I'd say it's necessary but not sufficient.

For me the key center approach means that the key center is my anchor this means that when constructing a melodic phrase I will use the key center major scale as gravitation notes. this means that I will construct the phrase using devices like chromatics, substitutions, pentatonic/blues scale, melodic minor, triads, digital patterns etc, but all these devices will gravitate to the major scale key center. I also like to use a device where I play arpeggios on the key center but not necessarily the arpeggio of the current chord this gives a nice bebopish sound to the phrase.

In ATTYA I tend to linger on the Ab key center on the G7 before modulating to C, because although the G7 can be considered the V7 of C it is pretty vague and I like the modulation to be done on the stable IMaj7 chord.

I have started working on the arpeggio/guide tone system, its hard and will probably be time consuming to get this integrated in my playing.

**merseybeat** · 10-03-2010, 04:13 AM

Me too Jay!

To me its just a way of thinking! I come from a rock background which usually consists of one Key center. After playing rock for almost 30 years I do not even think about modes or Arps, my ears just know how to follow the changes! So what I am basically saying is that as long as I know the key center and the progression I can happily make up little tunes to amuse me! I tried just playing lick based solely on arps but I just ended up sounding corny! I listen to Pat Metheny, Barney Kessel, George Benson etc. and I hear lots of key center playing! So whats good for the goose and all!

Eddie

**docbop** · 10-03-2010, 07:41 AM

Originally Posted by jayx123

For me the key center approach means that the key center is my anchor this means that when constructing a melodic phrase I will use the key center major scale as gravitation notes. this means that I will construct the phrase using devices like chromatics, substitutions, pentatonic/blues scale, melodic minor, triads, digital patterns etc, but all these devices will gravitate to the major scale key center. I also like to use a device where I play arpeggios on the key center but not necessarily the arpeggio of the current chord this gives a nice bebopish sound to the phrase.

In ATTYA I tend to linger on the Ab key center on the G7 before modulating to C, because although the G7 can be considered the V7 of C it is pretty vague and I like the modulation to be done on the stable IMaj7 chord.

I have started working on the arpeggio/guide tone system, its hard and will probably be time consuming to get this integrated in my playing.

What about when in a Minor key center not using a major key center then.

**jayx123** · 10-03-2010, 07:52 AM

Originally Posted by docbop

What about when in a Minor key center not using a major key center then.

I think only in major i will "convert" every thing to major so if for instance I have for example a minor 2-5-1 B-7b5 | E7b9 | A- it will be C major for me.

**docbop** · 10-03-2010, 07:59 AM

Originally Posted by jayx123

I think only in major i will "convert" every thing to major so if for instance I have for example a minor 2-5-1 B-7b5 | E7b9 | A- it will be C major for me.

Trouble with that typically most are still thinking Major when in minor and their playing sounds like it.

**jayx123** · 10-03-2010, 08:19 AM

Originally Posted by docbop

Trouble with that typically most are still thinking Major when in minor and their playing sounds like it.

the key center for me is not major or minor as they both have the same notes for me thinking in "major" key center is just fingering comfortable. I will create a minor sounding melody when I hear the minor progression (I do tend to use my ears).

As I wrote before I do tend to mark special sections when analyzing the tune for key centers for these, which, will be the dominants which resolve to the I the dominants which do not resolve to the one and also minor 2-5-1s these will help me to know where to play melodic minors, harmonic minors on the minor 2-5-1 but in all these cases the shapes of these scales will be "overlapped" with the nearest key center shape.
I hope this makes sense

**merseybeat** · 10-03-2010, 10:56 AM

Sorry guys this is where I split! Minor to my ears is whole new entity! Yes I can play the same licks (Minor and major are very interchangeable). but the minor has so much more to offer! i.e. Dorian, HM, JM, they are all options! Minor in my ears should be sad! - Major is happy!

Anyhow back on track! Just to get a handle on a key center I would like to use "The Girl from Ipanema" as an example! Take that main Getz riff(Head). There is no way you would ever come up with a tune like this if you simply followed the progression! Its very key center based! (The way I hear it anyway)!

Eddie

**jayx123** · 10-03-2010, 11:14 AM

Eddie, is autumn leaves E minor key center or G major?
for me its G major but I will construct minor phrases on the minor 2-5-1 section

**merseybeat** · 10-03-2010, 11:29 AM

A section Gmajor B section Eminor!

i.e.

Am - D7alt - GMaj7 = (G Major ii V I)

F#m7b5 - B7alt - Em(7,6,9 whatever) = (E minor ii V i)

then a major lift back to that ii V I

Now I can hear loads of you scoffing "But its the same, that crazy scouse git". But honestly its not! Also The fact that the Em (B section) is harmonic minor (ii V i) Treat it as such! There's a big difference!

I think that's why its such a hip song to start with! Its quite easy and there is more going on than at first appears!

Eddie

**merseybeat** · 10-03-2010, 02:41 PM

Both good! I like Jays tone and feel and 4thstuning had some tasty well placed triads outlining the changes! This is a great thread! Very productive!

Eddie

Currently rebuilding his studio! But promises to contribute!

**P4guitar** · 10-03-2010, 05:08 PM

Originally Posted by merseybeat

4thstuning Again nice playing! Any chance of hearing the full tune (with backing)? I bet it sounds great!

Nice guitars too!

Eddie

Sorry, I recorded the guitar into a Zoom H2 and only used BIAB as a reference output to my headphones. There never was an audio track of the rhythm section as that wasn't the point of the exercise.

In any regards I don't know how to record using BIAB yet. Nothing is intuitive in this program. With over 100 buttons on the user interface not counting the menu drop downs, I knew I was going to get very irritated very quickly and indeed I have. The user experience truly sucks. I guess the designer got tired and thought it good enough. Fortunately the market place tends to correct such abysmal behavior and something better will come along.

If someone has an easy trick they can share to make it work, especially with the alleged Real Tracks, I'd be willing to give it another shot.

BTW, thanks for the compliment and fyi, it was only one guitar in several bad poses that I took this morning before making the vid.

**merseybeat** · 10-03-2010, 11:42 PM

Yeah the BAIB jungle! I agree it is a bit cluttered! I export my tracks to individual WAV's then do my recording in a DAW (Sonar).

Top menu - Audio - Render Midi to stereo Wav - Choose (output path) - Dxi - Direct Render (Save WAV file)

Here you tick One Wav per track, Stereo Files(s), Normalize.

However you will need to enable a virtual synth!

To Record audio to BIAB you need to set up your sound card but any editing may be tricky in BAIB that's why its easier to export to Wav for DAW use!

Hope this helps

Eddie