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I can improvise fairly well at a slow speed, and I can play fast, but not as well, and when I do play fast it's definitely not as melodic as my slow playing. Should I work on building speed so I can improvise well at a fast speed, or should I focus on continuing to develop my melodic improvisations at a slow speed and just let my fast improvisation gradually improve over a long time?
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09-17-2010 06:55 PM
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I think you should do both; developing your style at comfortable circumstances and pushing the limits at speeds you're not yet confident with.
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I agree do both. I can tell you from a personal point of view, it's a drag to play with players who don't have chops. That doesn't mean you have to burn or play at burnin tempos, but when you don't have chops, it affects how you feel and phrase at any tempo, with any amount of notes. The more your able to sub-divide, the more defined your phrasing, both soloing and comping will become. Take a tune like Chick's " Bud Powell ", great to solo over or just as fun to groove behind with rhythm section. Usually around mm180 and felt in 2. But if you can't play or be able to imply 16th notes at 180, the tune really doesn't come alive. That's really not an up tempo tune, maybe medium up and your playing in 2. Most of your playing will be at tempos you can already handle. Being able to play at "fast tempos" doesn't happen by playing slow... What you want to play will become clear or can be developed at slower tempos if need be, but the actual skill of being able to play as you said; " fast ", come from proper technique and practice, the better your technique, the less time.
Best Reg
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Would you enjoy playing alongside Miles Davis?
Originally Posted by Reg
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I did get to play with one of the gangs from Bitches brew... ( not Miles). And who are the guitarist who did... anyway it's not the actual rate of notes played... an example; you have a dotted half note tied to a 16th followed by dotted 8th, which is tied to 1st 16th note of next bar followed by dotted 8th tied to dotted half... if you can't play the 16th notes how are you going to play the 3 note phrase over two bars. Try and play Miles version of very simple tune " seven steps to heaven" , just the basic intro groove at tempo... not many notes but if you can't sub-divide the beat, your going to have problem locking in, let along interacting. Or another simple melody, "E.S.P.", Shorter's tune played by Miles. Again not many notes... but with out chops or ability to sub-divide, it's hard to hang on at tempo. Please don't take my last post personal when I was complaining about playing gigs with players who don't have chops, it was not directed towards anyone... (it's usually drummers and bass players), and the part that's a drag is not being able lock into the groove and keep the tempos steady, again not rate of notes played. It take time to build up chops or technique, let alone play Jazz. I host a Jazz Jam one a month, and take great pride in my abilities to help young or beginning players have fun performing while learning the skills. I hosted one tonight, It's going to go live on the web next month, I'll post the site when domain name is leased and set up. Should be great learning tool... Best Reg
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No offense taking, I was just curious about your response to my question. Lookin' forward to checkin out your jam!
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Its hard to really improvise at high speed so I suggest have an arsenal of fast licks and throw them in when you wanna play something fast stuff
Last edited by jayx123; 09-22-2010 at 03:24 AM. Reason: typo
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MrFantasy, I can only tell you what worked well for me, and that was to get really, really friendly with a metronome (actually, I preferred a drum machine, and later the Band In A Box program, but same concept). I had a nice, melodic style at medium tempos, but when it got fast I lost the melodies. So I just kept upping the tempo by 2 to 5 bpm over a period of time, and things improved greatly over a year or so.
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Great idea with the drum machine and metronome. Since I started school, the only real way to practice is with a metronome. Start using every click as a beat to get used to playing with it, then go to clicks as 2's and 4's.
I have played with cats who have blistering chops, but no feel, they obviously sit at home and try and play as fast as they can. They rush. You should try to play as fast as you can, but it is of no use if you can't keep the time. I have also had the pleasure of playing with people who have blistering chops and amazing time feel, its always a great experience.
There are very few things worse, in playing with people, than a bass player or a drummer who can't keep up an 'up' feel. When you go for a blistering lick or run and they slow down, it sounds like you screwed up, not cool. I am not saying that the time has to be precise, but it should be constant.
In short playing fast is only good if you can keep it together. Not everyone is lucky to have perfect pitch, or fantastic ears. But you make yourself pretty decent with the time feel if you practice with the 'nome all the time. Its really awesome to play with people that have the ability to play in time, i
think better than playing with someone who has impossible chops.
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Not everyone can burn. Jim Hall, Bill Frisell - such great players, but they could never play be-bop. It doesn't matter, though. The play through the changes, not on them.
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I agree with the first. Play so slow that you need to shave between motes and so often that you puke (NTS told me that, and means it ) Originally Posted by MrFantasy
What good is a tune that has have to love beans but not when they have been beaten to death...[and you can tell] Play it till you puke [almost]Then be rewarded with the satisfaction of playing it right..
PRACTICE at least-----tempo, dynamics....loud and soft and [COLOR="rgb(244, 164, 96)"]note choices for improv. [/COLOR]
S'cuse me. I have to go overplay now.https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/image...-technique.gif
BreeZy send me good thoughts please/
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The problem with this thinking is that people who "just can't play fast" don't play as steadily at slower tempos as they think they do. Speed is not some mystery achievement---it's born of accuracy and consistency. If you're not accurate or consistent, you struggle at every tempo. If you *are* accurate and consistent, you'll get fast enough. Maybe not "burning" fast but that's not the issue. The issue is being accurate and consistent in your playing. If you are, speed will come of itself. Originally Posted by Jaffey
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Listen to any of Miles' stuff in the mid 60s... on many of those tunes, his band plays FAST. Like, really fast. Originally Posted by musicjohnny
His quintet playing "Walkin" live:
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Exactly. I'm amazed at Tony Williams' drumming--to play that fast with that much swing for that long on those extended jams: phew! Originally Posted by max_power
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Great thread. Great posts all around. I like Reg's pointer on the subdivision and the following ideas.
I can't shred metal, jazz, or anything. I'm one slow mofo. I can play at various BPMs though. My upper limit has increased a lot over the years too.
Some things work best at certain tempos. There are thresholds, I guess.
For me, ballads allow the most diversity though the trade-off is space in the accompaniment. It is tougher to keep time if the rhythmic guides are few and far between. 32nds and odd groupings are typically easier... 3 over 4 or 4 over 3 work well too.
In the mid tempos 8th notes RULE!!! Bop lines are usually based around swung 8ths. Triplets and 16ths are used as embellishments. 16ths are the common ground for some players and they are usually considered to be "double timing". Coltrane and Pat Martino come to mind. Pianists horn players can go there with more ease than the average guitarist. Some dudes don't bother... Horace Silver just grooved without goin' speed-demon.
At a certain point, 16ths become too fast for even the fastest. Giant steps at 280-something had Trane pullin' mainly 8ths and triplets.
I can play 16ths with creative control (not just patterns and flourishes) up to 130 BPM. Pretty slow considering most metal-head teens can out-shred me at 140-170.
Between 190 and 220 (my max) I'm on 8th note/syncopation/triplet duty. Forget running solid streams of anything. sigh...
It's good to know what works for you at any given tempo. Think about the big picture: the song form and the changes, etc.
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there's mental speed and physical speed. think about how you read - you don't have to sound out c-a-t to process the entire chunk of info that is the word "cat." taken to a higher level, your mind can process entire phrases as you read, and formulate them as you speak without difficulty. but some people stutter - their mouths don't keep pace with their minds.
experienced musicians can mentally process changes very quickly - especially typical changes like blues, rhythm changes, ii-V-I's etc..., and formulate phrases just as fast.
physical speed is all about technique that can keep up with mental speed. technique is all about accurate, mindful, and economical repetition of the physical building blocks of execution to the point that technique siphons out none of the processing power of your mind to be perceptive and creative, so it both keeps pace and does not slow you down.
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work on both
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The feel or where you play on or off the beat is the next step in getting your chops together. If you think of an attack as being perfectly played... exactly in time , you now can think of playing that attack slightly ahead or behind. Different styles or grooves have different feels... where we play those attacks, even on "straight eights", term for playing straight, not swing etc... When you begin to play at faster tempos... the technique needs to be felt not mechanically played... Sometimes that's the reason faster tempo playing breaks down... best Reg
Last edited by Reg; 02-25-2011 at 10:57 AM.
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