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I have a question about way of thinking when improvising over chord changes. Let's take a simple progression Dm7-G7-CM7-FM7
As much as I've learned by now, there a 2 ways to think:
1. D dorian - G mixolydian - C ionian - F lydian
or
2. C major starting from 2nd - C major starting on 5th and so on...
I know these are same things but there's a big difference when playing. Now I'm able to think both ways but my tempos are extremely slow. My question is, which way to go? On 1st way I need to think 4 different positions on neck but on the 2nd way I need to think that Dm7 is 2nd in C major, G7 is 5th, FM7 is 4th, which may not be so easy when changes and/or keys are more complicated.
Which way do you think? Which one is faster way?
Yes, I know in ideal you don't think and "play what you hear", but I believe that comes after the thinking part has done. You need to have some kind of system at least.
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09-17-2010 05:30 PM
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Not everyone is that conscious about it. For some, the routine comes mainly from lot of playing and listening, for others it conglomerates from analyzing theory.
Originally Posted by jazzislander
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personaly I would say if you intend on using C Major, D dorian and G mixo just think C major as it is all the same scale. if you think of each scale as a seperate entity once you start adding in arpeggios, guide tones, outside ideas, chromaticism you will start confusing yourself. Keep everything as simple as possible.
By the way, I completely agree with you that the 'thinking' and 'playing by ear' go hand in hand.
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Can't speak for others but my approach was to internalize ii V I sequences or other short chord sequences (bII7 I, etc.) and the substitutions thereof. That means to learn them at very slow tempos till they're burned in and I don't have to think about it. Then these snippets are strung together to span the whole tune.
Another way of expressing this would be that I internalize the first 3 chords of your approach 1. below so it requires no calculation on the fly, then I deconstruct the entire tune into sequences of these base building blocks.
Simple ex: Rhythm turnaround iii VI7 ii V7 I is composed of two ii V7 I(i) blocks descending a whole step. Originally Posted by jazzislander
I never think in terms of the key of the tune, playing the key scale and then trying to fit in the odd note to match the harmony at the moment.
I'm sure many here will disagree with this approach but I'm self taught and that's what I came up with.
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Dm7 G7 Cmaj7 Fmaj7
Here's what I think of...
Dm7 - I'm going to play some Dm7 stuff
G7 - I'm going to play some G7 stuff
or
Dm7 - G7 - Cmaj7, I'm going to play some ii V I stuff
For me that's the simpliest way to think.
I never think dorian mixolydian ionian when I'm playing.
I see chord shapes on the guitar and I play around those, I'm generaly aware of where the 1 3 5 7 9 b9 #9 #11 etc. chord tones are for the chord of the moment, that's where my 'stuff' comes from. I'm developing a relationship with those chord degrees, so to speak, I'm especially familiar with the 3rds and the 7ths.Last edited by fep; 09-18-2010 at 12:24 AM.
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Reduce everything down to its simplest terms and then find where you can embellish.
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Neither. Both ways are way too complicated! You're also playing the same notes over each chord and it seems like they're unrelated thinking that way too....
The most important thing is guide tones. Also since that's a II-V-I I'd try and connect them all using arpeggios (especially lowering the 7th of the D-7 to get the 3rd of G7 for a smooth moment).
Once you have this down I'd then suggest adding some passing tones to 'juice things' up a little. Since that's a minor II-V-I I'd be going for the b/#'s over that G7, but that's personal taste!
Hope this helps.Last edited by whippersnapper; 09-18-2010 at 04:53 PM.
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I recently heard Metheney's bootleg audio of a private lesson.
In it he says 50% of what he plays are 'chord tones.'
This reiterates the advice you've received here already.
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If a person wants to use scales, that's just as viable as arpeggios/guide tone lines. Sure, they have to think at first, but hey- you have to think with arpeggios and guide tones, too.
Not trying to say that guide tone and chord tone lines are bad or wrong, but scales aren't, either. You just have to work on it until you can do it automatically. It'll come.
There's an anecdote of John Coltrane inviting someone over to dinner and keeping the poor bastard waiting for 3 hours while he played scales. If it works for Coltrane, well...I ain't gonna complain.
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I agree with Shadow of the Sun. At least for me, it doesn't matter if I play guide tones, chord tones, scales or chromatic "outside" stuff, I still have to think some way to know that I play over Dm7. I mean, both ways I can play Dm7 arpeggio over the chord, but the question was, how to think that it comes faster and easier. One way could be "This is Dm7, I play Dm7 arpeggio" or the other way "I play m7 arpeggio starting on the 2nd note of C major scale".
The first one seems easier(less thinking)and even more logical(Dm7 is Dm7 and that's it) but I'm afraid that at high tempos it goes insane and unmusical in terms of building melodic phrases.
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Learn the scales. Modes. See the guide tones within as points of reference, departure, arrival etc.
Metheny sees guide tones as parts of a bigger deeper structure.
It really doesn't have to be either/or.
One sits nicely in another.
Learn them so the thinking is replaced by hearing, feeling, dancing, singing.
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Both way too complicated for a progression in C major structured like that. In fact, all the work to think "D Dorian to G mixolydian to etc." and those are the most vanilla notes you can play over the whole thing!
Modes are very useful, and you can get some great sounds with them, but not in this obvious and overthought example.
There's a lot that would effect the way I looked at this progression. The tempo, how much time is spent on each chord (same for each one or different) the style of music I'm playing (bop--'m going all "altered dominant" on that G7-- swing or gypsy jazz, I might play harmonic minor)
Overall, I use chord tones as a guide over an easy progression, and leave te scales and modes to the stuff that really calls for 'em.
As Mike is getting at--all modes of thinking don't constrain the notes available to you to play--they're roadmaps, simply, and whatever way of viewing the fretboard that works for you, use it.
But If I might expound on that metaphor--viewing this passage modally is the equivalent of having a street map of New York city and deciding to take Lexington avenue all the way from Harlem to Grammercy.
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Modes give you a colour.
||: Dm7 G7 Cma7 Fm7 | G#m7 Ama7 | D9 F#m75 | G9sus Ab7 :||
Certain movements infer certain sounds. The min sounds above could each have a different colour, as can the 7th sounds, and the 2 ma7 sounds.
Know those sounds/modes/scales backward. Know how to chromaticize them. See the chord tones, guide tones, arps within, but not separate from what they are embedded in.
The use of modes and scales is not a musical end result, but rather a set of foundational tools, to be used as springboards for all the embellishments we want to add.
So much misunderstanding where Modes/Scales are concerned.
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Mike, I'm not sure what you're getting at--would you honestly would think 'dorian--mixolydian--ionian' over a simple ii V I? Or are you speaking of the 2nd-4th bar of your example where things get interesting?
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I wouldn't think anything. I wouldn't think guide tones or chord tones to be honest. I absorb all that stuff so it's really second nature. Rather like speech. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
The modes are a tool to describe each sound. So I see the arps etc as part of the mode no matter how fast those chords go by.
Let me ask you..... would you think b7 3rd 9th whatever?
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think is a bad word maybe--visualize, maybe? And I'm talking during practice of course, when there's time to analyze...in the moment, there's no "thinking" for sure...
I definitely see what your saying how they're all contained within each other--I think we agree that's it's never really either or. My initial comment to the OP stands though--his initial post seems to be a very complicated way at looking at something that's very simple.
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It's a delicate thing for me, mr B. When i practiced this stuff in the past I made sure each sound was delineated. So, from a modal perspective, i knew whether each chord had a b2 or 6th or b6 or whatever. I also knew how each degree sounded specifically against the root. G#m7 to Ama7 for instance. The F# has a different weight in each chord, even when played with 2 beats on each. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
So what i'm saying is, these sounds are important enough to me to be used with some deliberation.
Each arp, guide tone, chord tone is a part of a scale/mode and the notes that orbit these guide tones have a definite weight/gravitational pull/affect on those tones.
This is as close to the way i 'think' in practice as i can put into words, but as always it sounds messy in cyber space. Still, i hope this helps.
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There are millions of methods of approaching soloing over simple changes, all ok I guess. But I would think context would really set up your approach... Solo, Duo etc...Since your giving changes we know the harmony, not style and setting. Guide tones are great for comping or implying harmony. More than two sets while your soloing... maybe, but your melodic line should gain from technique, which if your playing solo usually does. The progression D-7 G7, Cmaj7 Fmaj7 needs to be finished, kind of weird to stop... finish the phrase.. D-7 G7, Cmaj7 Fmaj7, B-7b5 E7#9, A-7 (Eb9#11 to repeat), or whatever, it's a little hard to stop on sub-dom. or weak beat of harmonic pulse. Your solo would be a melodic phrase of your design that works through the changes for you. Everyone has their approaches which work for them. What I have done over the years is to be aware of and understand, as many approaches to soloing as possible, it's an ongoing process and be able to cover in those styles... and develop my own voice from what I have to say. May sound simplistic but without history and understanding it's very hard to express oneself knowledgeable.
There are players who solo from chord tones, even to the extent that you pull actual notes from chords your playing etc... You can play scales or arpeggios from harmonic area and play the add the notes games, This can be fun. You set up phrase, either rhythmically or melodically and add notes from outside the harmonic area of moment using a control system or just by playing what you know or like. Great way to help create tension release pulse, which helps create movement in your lines. Most tunes have harmonic rhythm or phrasing, similar to tension release, but on a harmonic level. Some think in terms of Tonic,( at Rest), sub-dominant, (Wanting to go somewhere, but with a few choices) and Dominant, ( wanting to resolve to Tonic)... This is a little more complicated, you don't think of chords, you hear different types of resolutions and structure your solo using this type of control device... there are, obviously many variations. Anyway eventually your ears become aware of all the many types of soloing and you begin to speak... Sorry I'm almost late...Gig Best Reg
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[QUOTE=Reg;97798] What I have done over the years is to be aware of and understand, as many approaches to soloing as possible, it's an ongoing process and be able to cover in those styles... and develop my own voice from what I have to say. [QUOTE]
This is it in a nutshell for me.
And this is why it's important to embrace, or at least encourage the different processes available.
I saw somewhere that to analyze is to miss the point of music.
I mean, this stuff is getting out of hand.
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Hey Mike... Thanks...miss the point of music...That's quite the topic in it's self. Is there an end or final understanding... or is that missing the point. Would be interesting to hear points of view... Why don't you get thread going Mike, I as well as many on this site appreciate your opinions... Best Reg
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Will do, Reg. Good idea. Likewise on those opinions, fella. Originally Posted by Reg
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For basic improv:
I agree with fep to a large extent. Visualize either the form one or form two bar chord fingering of the chord and start there. A little bit of playing and you'll lock into where the whole steps are and where the half steps are. (essentially learn the scale that goes along with the chord).
As long as you end a phrase on a good note, you can play almost anything you want before it, so find those good ending tones and start experimenting.
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I often read when I am studying or rehearsing for a gig but on the gig, I almost always play by ear because my eyes are not good enough and I usually rely on my ear for melodic ideas. I know many, many of the old standards since I have played and listened to them countless times.
wiz
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This is how I think, I analyze the harmony at first to find the key centers then I use the key center (Major scale) as an anchor. once I have this anchor I can focus on creating melodies using all kind of devises but all of them have to relate to the key center.
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Man, lots of stuff in this thread that I agree with because that's the process I went through (am still going through with more sophsticated harmonies). I can "think" in a variety of ways - I can think arp, I can think mode, I can think overall scale (playing all C major over that 2-4-1-4 the OP referenced), or...and here's where I am now...I can just think "the stuff that works over that stuff."
But getting to the latter, where all the scale and arp and chromatic thinking just starts fusing together takes a long time.
Jazzislander - I say it's all irrelevant. You can think of it any way you want, the important thing is to spend gobs and gobs of time running lines over changes and trying to make good sounding lines. If you find something that you like, be sure to analyze it in terms of the notes/musical intervals you played so you can transpose it and change it for different chords.
Eventually a lot of the scale and arp superimposition patterns begin to manifest themselves to you because you've played them so much. Then you can start going more by ear because your fingers can find the notes so easily.
Just play - use whatever system you want. But if improvising is your bag - you have to spend a TON of time at it.
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