Faster way of thinking when improvising over chord changes?

[chrisg]

This might be a little far off the origional topic but this is the method I used and still use to practice and learn a tune.

1. Learn to comp through the changes
2. Learn the melody
3. play scale tones in quavers over the changes
4. Pick a random position on the fretboard and play the chord tones on crotchets or quavers (depending on the lengh the chord is player for)within 4 frets on the top 4 strings (D,G,B,E) (This exercise is great because it makes you realy think about what notes are in each chord and where the notes are on the guitar). repeat in other positions.
5. play the 1,2,3,5 of every chord
6. Play the 3,4,5,7 of every chord
7. repeat exercise 3-6 melodicaly

there are no shortcuts to improvisation and everyone thinks or things in there own way, but I assure you if you go through this list on every standard you play (at the start it might take months just to get through one) you will have all the tools to improvise well.

[tjmicsak]

I think it is a combination of looking at the progression in any way you choose at any given time, along with making a good feel and good sense out of where your viewpoint might take you so that your phrasing has continuity to it. Here is a sample I did quickly to illustrate. I began by looking at how each chord note changed location on each string and the first phrasing is kind of turning that in to a syncapated melody that changes to a scale up to a good achor in the domanant key.
It all also has to do with what you stumble on and make work.
The second part is a play on an arpeggiated motif moving up a string pair at a time across the neck, then the final part I am playing around with the major and minor seventh chord position voicings of the domonant and minor second chords. While all this is taking place I am processing it to try and make it provide a symantical feel as though I am talking so the phrasing has a flow and feel.
What you want to do is use all your viewpoints as changing tools to keep your creativity fresh as you go along while letting your melody you just happen to create continue to move you forward as it all kind of falls where it does. IOW a passage you make on the fly can inspire you to use it for the next one and so on. I don't play alot of jazz yet but have dabbled with it over the years apart from my focus on rock and modern country so I don't offer this as a profound insight but simply what I processed when I did this sample to help you.
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/defa...?bandID=805046

[jazzislander]

thanks for all of the answers. seems that there are really endless ways of improvising. but it's all an endless path.

[Jaffey]

New to this board.

My take is similar to those who have posted here. I feel using scale tones are a good way to "see" the important notes of the chord. I find it very important to know the 5 major scale fingerings inside and out, because inside these scales are the pentatonics, chord tones, target notes that are needed to be able to play jazz. Third fret Cmaj7th scale, I see the important notes "change" as I improvise over the chords. Same thing when playing at the fifth fret and so on.

I studied with Pat Martino years ago and his approach was to convert everything to minor. So his thinking on the above ii-v-i would be:

Dm7 - d minor
G7 - ab minor
Cmag7 - a minor

The D minor over the Dm7 isn't necessarily dorian. Pat would use D melodic minor just to bend the scale a bit.

The Ab minor over the G7 would usually be Ab melodic/harmonic minor.

The A minor over the Cmaj7 would be the A natural minor scale.

He just substitues this way 'cause it works in his head.

I have found that using pentatonics mixed with the Dorian mode only can yield some intersting sounds. For example:

Dm7 - play D minor pentatonic
G7 - play F/Bb ninor pentatonic
Cmaj7 - play E minor pentatonic.

This way, thought is only focused on one scale. I have found that using the Dorian mode (with/without chromatics) sounds very good, and you can get to it quickly. For example:

Dm7 - D dorian
G7 - F dorian/Bb dorian
Cmaj7 - E minor pentatonic.

So when I'm on the G7, I'm ony 1/2 step away from resolution. Adding chromatics to the Dorian scales really makes it sound hip.

These are some of my approaches.

The best way overall is to letthe chords do the work. Just because a chord comes up doesn't mean anything has to be played. Space is crucial. It's the Jim Hall approach to soloing. Play over the tune, not the changes.

Best.

[whiskey02]

[QUOTE=jazzislander;97571]I have a question about way of thinking when improvising over chord changes. Let's take a simple progression Dm7-G7-CM7-FM7
As much as I've learned by now, there a 2 ways to think:
1. D dorian - G mixolydian - C ionian - F lydian
or
2. C major starting from 2nd - C major starting on 5th and so on...

How about an even faster way of thinking;

Dm7 - don't emphasize/sustain F# or C#
G7 - don't emphasize/sustain F#
CMaj 7 - don't emphasize/sustain C#,Eb or Bb

Not saying you CAN'T use those notes...

If you think about all the possible things you could play/superimpose over any given chord, all the notes that can "easily" work...then think about what does not "easily" fit/work...you quickly see that there are FAR more possibilities than limitations.

Cma7 - you could "easily" play C maj, D maj, D min, E maj, E min, F maj, F min, F#minb5, G maj, Abminb5, A min, B min, B dim, ...and on and on till the cows come home. Frankly, I find maj7 chords require a lot more careful footing than minor or dom7 chords.

[franco6719]

Jazzislander - I say it's all irrelevant. You can think of it any way you want, the important thing is to spend gobs and gobs of time running lines over changes and trying to make good sounding lines. If you find something that you like, be sure to analyze it in terms of the notes/musical intervals you played so you can transpose it and change it for different chords.

Eventually a lot of the scale and arp superimposition patterns begin to manifest themselves to you because you've played them so much. Then you can start going more by ear because your fingers can find the notes so easily.

Just play - use whatever system you want. But if improvising is your bag - you have to spend a TON of time at it.[/quote]

There it is. Nicely put!!

[Eccles]

I would think of modes and 2-5-1's like this...

II-V-1's:

Ionian Dm7 G7 Cmaj7
Dorian Dm7 Gm7 Cm7
Phrygian C#maj7 Gdim7 Cm7
Lydian D7 Gmaj7 Cmaj7
Mixolydian Dm7 m7 C7
Aeolian Ddim7 Gm7 Cm7
Locrian C#maj7 F#maj7 Cdim7

To me Dm7 G7 Cmaj7 is pure Ionian and I think it wrong to think of the Dm7 as a dorian component of a run of changes. To me the modes are pallets. Here the colour changing but not the pallet.

[DUBYA R M]

The way I usually approach a II,V,I (in this case C being the I) is to ignore the V chord and play against the II chord, and I would think D-9th because it is a good sub for G13th, which is a good sub for G7th which I am ignoring, at least for the moment.
Let's say each chord gets 4 beats. I would be in 5th pos. playing..Oh FMaj.7th arp's( all the notes being in a D-9th anyway )..And the FMaj.7th is a sub for the V chord, which I am still ignoring..remember?
SO..while the II chord is being played I am playing FMaj.7th, D-9th Stuff in 5th position. In the next measure the V chord (G Dom.) is being played for 4 beats. I am still playing D-9th and FMaj.7th riffs..UNTILL the last beat or two before the chord progression goes to the I Chord(CMaj.7th).
For that one or two beats you can create tension by playing an A flat minor riff, or think of it as G7th#5flat9 if you wish. Are you still with me?

Try this: (5th pos. all 8th notes) 1st measure II chord
F(4th finger 8th fret 5th string) A(3rd finger 7th fret 4th string)
C(1st finger 5th fret 3rd string) E(1st finger 5th fret 2nd string)
G(4th finger 8th fret 2nd string) E, C, A

2nd measure (triplets) V chord
E(1st finger 5th fret 2nd string) C(1st finger 5th fret 3rd string)
A(3rd finger 7th fret 4th string)
E(1st finger 5th fret 2nd string) C(1st finger 5th fret 3rd string)
A(3rd finger 7th fret 4th string)
Eflat(1st finger 4th fret 2nd string) B(1st finger 4th fret 3rd string)
Aflat(3rd finger 6th fret 4th string)
Eflat(1st finger 4th fret 2nd string) B(1st finger 4th fret 3rd string)
Aflat(3rd finger 6th fret 4th string)

3rd measure (8th notes) I chord
D(1st finger 3rd fret 2nd string) G(1st finger 3rd fret 1st string)
D#(2nd finger 4th fret 2nd string) E(3rd finger 5th fret 2nd string)
C(3rd finger 5th fret 3rd string) G(3rd finger 5th fret 4th string)
F(1st finger 3rd fret 4th string) E(1st finger 2nd fret 4th string)

Pretty easy..move it around in diff. keys.

[DUBYA R M]

Allow me to explain my own post,a bit more clearer, if you will.

I said "I ignore the V chord" even though I play over substitutes for it in the 1st and 2nd measures!
Since the minor II and V7 are subs for each other, I like to just think of stuff to play over the minor II because I know it will sound good over the V7 too., and that makes it simple and faster.

[lao ce]

I usually ignore the minor and play on V7.
I think v7 is the significant chord and adding coloring tones to that is more obvious. For example adding b9 to V7 reveals a possible path using a diminished line. But if I think as a minor, it would not be really that straightforward (for me).

[DUBYA R M]

Like I stated : the V7 chord and the minor II chord are substitutes for each other.
The thread we are in is calling for a "faster way of thinking".
I like to address every chord being played, along with every sub for every
one being played, and I certainly would never dismiss the V7 chord.
If you play the "simple" example I wrote against the II V I in C, and play it
while the chords are being played, you will hear the II and the V chord
being covered quite nicely along with tension being supplied before the" I chord". I could have used a Dim. run to supply the tension and I could have used G minor pentatonic before it, but the thread called for something else, and I hope my little example isn't dismissed just because I started out saying I ignore the V chord..its called sarcasm. I love the V7 chord, if it were a good looking chick I'd leave my wife for it. OK?

[keith]

" I love the V7 chord, if it were a good looking chick I'd leave my wife for it. OK? "


Good line.

[DUBYA R M]

Thank you!
My wife and I happen to be in a little spat tonight..which may have prompted that line.
Perhaps I will grab my guitar and go out in search of a hot V7!
Then again, I think staying home and enjoying the"silent treatment"
is a safer idea.

[lao ce]

...I hope my little example isn't dismissed just because I started out saying I ignore the V chord..its called sarcasm.

I didn't think anything more behind what I wrote down. I only stated how I think most of the times and why it is easier for me. It is my way currently and it doesn't state anything about your example, feelings or life

[Jaffey]

I have been messing about with using just the major and harmonic minor scales to cover 2-5-1-6 changes. Here is what I am doing:

Dm7 - D dorian (C major scale)
G7 - C harmonic minor
Cmaj7 - C major scale
A7 - D harmonic minor

As you can see I am floating between 2 key centers. That's it. I wouldn't want to do this forever but I can easily get some very notes uding the harmonic minor over 2 chords. Just a thought.

[Random Robot]

Ok, I read most of the post to this thread but let me ask you this, wouldn't it be easier just to think chord tones plus your choice of extentions and passing tones? If you're given extentions in the chord then you can use those but if you're getting off on just a Major or minor 7s then 9s, 11s and 13s # or b with passing tones pretty much cover it, right? I just can't (yet) keep up with all the modes and scales but chord tones are pretty easy. From someone who is just getting into jazz it seems like you guys overthink everything. I know what sound I get from each of those extentions so when I want to hear those sounds I just add them to what ever I'm playing. Too simple?

[lao ce]

That works mostly, that is my favorite method to use. But, I also need to think in scales, when I play a really fast song for example (or for quick runs).

[Random Robot]

I just want to add that those are supposed to be "extensions" and not "extentions", I apologize for being a product of the public schools sytem in Eastern Ky.

[Dad3353]

'Bot alert... 'zhangmanqing' fails the Turing Test.