Question to Barry Harris Line Building Disciples

[StringAddict]

Did you jump right in with this or wait until you were already playing decent bop / jazz to start seriously practicing this stuff (his single line approach, not harmony)?

I ask because I started trying to self teach myself this as my first step into jazz a few years back without much luck...then the teacher I got emphasized listening and copying language from the music, analyzing it, etc, which greatly improved my playing.

Most of the BH stuff never came out in my playing but now every time I transcribe or analyze a line, I cant help but see all the BH building blocks I learned about!

As most beginner/ intermediate jazzers probably feel, my playing feels like I have some solid ideas I stole for certain sections of tunes, then "empty" - like I cant create good melodies out of the scales - arpeggios in real time where I am not playing language I internalized. The BH stuff always seemed so logical for this as it essentially trains your fingers and ears to make musical bits out of the scale notes, when you dont have language you are hearing to play at the moment.

Those who really stuck with this approach - do you believe it is better suited for first having a solid foundation and using it to build on that, or would it be wise for me to really get back into drilling it now as supplementary with my more traditional learning of the moment?

[AllanAllen]

I'm in my 3rd or 4th try to learn the Barry Harris stuff. I started with the scale of chords but it's tough to apply to comping. Well, taking all the chords and trying to apply all of them is tough. Adding a diminshed approach chord is easy. Once I could understand where things go it got easier.

A huge complaint for me on this system is workshop lessons don't translate to self teaching very easily, the workshop is a community and a book or youtube video is self study.

I learn one bit at a time, so if someone just said vamp those 2 measures of All of Me like this. I would have been using the Barry Harris stuff all along. Concepts over language I guess. I like to get an example and play with it on my own, like a child with a set of Legos. I only want to build it the right way once.

C6 Ddim C6 F#dim
E9 Ebdim E9 Ebdim

I cant create good melodies out of the scales - arpeggios in real time

Can you play straight scales and arpeggios in real time with a tune? That's probably a good goal post to reach before digging into all the twists and turns of the Barry Harris method. Christian has a video explaining this. If you skip to 6:20 you can see the example to see what I'm talking about.

[Tal_175]

Here’s my hot take. The difference between learning a bunch of chord-scales and arpeggios versus doing justice to the Barry Harris approach mostly comes down to the student’s degree of snowflakery. It’s common to hear students complain that they “learned scales and arpeggios” but they can't put them to good use when they perform. If they went to a BH workshop, they’d quickly realize they hadn’t even begun learning them.
You have to reach a level of mastery with BH scales where you can apply the devices and connect them on the fly at performance tempos. That’s a lot more work than memorizing grid patterns, which is what most guitarists seem to think what “learning a scale” means.
The interesting thing is that what’s unique to BH isn’t the devices themselves, but the emphasis he placed on building lines with them which is a kind of activity that is more implicitly assumed in many other contexts where scales are taught. Chris Parks' channel does a very good job at showing this process.

[GuyBoden]

I use the BH "added note rules".

[AllanAllen]

Tal, I don’t think that’s a hot take. I think it’s the real truth of it. Barry Harris isn’t for people who don’t have their technical skills sorted out to a well above average level.

It’s why I’m on my 4th attempt and just grasping crumbs.

[Christian Miller]

Here’s my hot take. The difference between learning a bunch of chord-scales and arpeggios versus doing justice to the Barry Harris approach mostly comes down to the student’s degree of snowflakery. It’s common to hear students complain that they “learned scales and arpeggios” but they can't put them to good use when they perform. If they went to a BH workshop, they’d quickly realize they hadn’t even begun learning them.
You have to reach a level of mastery with BH scales where you can apply the devices and connect them on the fly at performance tempos. That’s a lot more work than memorizing grid patterns, which is what most guitarists seem to think what “learning a scale” means.
The interesting thing is that what’s unique to BH isn’t the devices themselves, but the emphasis he placed on building lines with them which is a kind of activity that is more implicitly assumed in many other contexts where scales are taught. Chris Parks' channel does a very good job at showing this process.

That’s true. There’s nothing unique about the patterns and phrases because they are the ones you will see mid century jazz players play time and time again - and they still feature in soloists language today.

Barry is useful for having everything in one place, but the most powerful aspect of his teaching is that it allows a player to escape simply regurgitating licks and shows a way to apply and develop vocabulary beyond the classic ‘cut and paste a II V lick’ approach that is taught at most jazz schools.

That said if you haven’t practiced things like transposing II V licks through a tune- preferably ones you transcribe yourself, I would highly recommend. It’s a great way to sound good fast, and it’s a time honoured approach. It does have its limitations of course. Moving from there to Barry (provided you are interested in bop specifically) is a logical progression.

Barry is not IMO the best path for neophyte jazz guitar students and even some more experienced ones. I think it’s over recommended on the internet. Great if you can already play a bit and want to go deep into bop.

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[acoustic_archtop]

Did you jump right in with this or wait until you were already playing decent bop / jazz to start seriously practicing this stuff (his single line approach, not harmony)?

I ask because I started trying to self teach myself this as my first step into jazz a few years back without much luck...then the teacher I got emphasized listening and copying language from the music, analyzing it, etc, which greatly improved my playing.

Most of the BH stuff never came out in my playing but now every time I transcribe or analyze a line, I cant help but see all the BH building blocks I learned about!

As most beginner/ intermediate jazzers probably feel, my playing feels like I have some solid ideas I stole for certain sections of tunes, then "empty" - like I cant create good melodies out of the scales - arpeggios in real time where I am not playing language I internalized. The BH stuff always seemed so logical for this as it essentially trains your fingers and ears to make musical bits out of the scale notes, when you dont have language you are hearing to play at the moment.

Those who really stuck with this approach - do you believe it is better suited for first having a solid foundation and using it to build on that, or would it be wise for me to really get back into drilling it now as supplementary with my more traditional learning of the moment?

You seemed to have skipped all the chords? How have you tried to fit those into your playing?

[PickingMyEars]

Besides some chordal moves and the harmonized scale, most of my studies have been focused on Barry Harris's "single line" methods. I study with one of Barry's old bandmates and friends--been four/five years now? Helps me stay focused and find deeper ways to apply all the runs and mechanisms through different tunes.

I knew chord scales, enclosures, arpeggios, and such. I could understand them and "play" them--but my practice never really sounded... musical. Even when I played chord scales over tunes, the scales sounded separate from the tune. Even chord tone studies didn't sound like the tune until I comp'ed the chords to it all. I took lessons, studied in college, did a BUNCH of ear training, transcribed a bit, and it didn't click.

When I started studying Barry Harris's Method--or whatever you want to call it--I heard a cohesion between my scale practice and the tune practice. If I got very strict with how I played the exercises and runs, I found that I was also working on my time and rhythm. Nothing got me to really address harmonic rhythm quite like Barry Harris's approach. Studying the approach has even given me a systematic way to improve my technique. Practice felt musical. I felt like I was practicing music that sounded like music--sounds obvious, but that was NOT the case for me before. Helps me stay motivated. There isn't as much guess work involved, but you can still study the method quite deeply.

I think you still have to do transcription and listen to the music. I have more ways to make sense of what I hear with the Barry stuff, but I still have to listen and imitate from the music.

Didn't Chris Parks say he learned the Barry Harris method from the onset? I wish I came across Barry's stuff earlier in my studies, but maybe not first thing.

[StringAddict]

You seemed to have skipped all the chords? How have you tried to fit those into your playing?

I'm doing this course called Labyrinth of Limitations which teaches BH harmony pretty thoroughly, and I comp a lot using his 6th diminished scales.

The line question is more because both traditional learning (transcribe, analyze, play solos/heads as etudes, plug and play phrases etc) and the BH approach take quite a bit of time each day to get results from. So I'd have to reduce one to increase the other

[Strat-itis]

I studied with Chris Parks at Open Studio several times weekly for a year and a half.

Do you have to wait to study BH until you're already playing decent bop? No. It helps you get there.

Would you want to begin playing jazz by only following the BH method? Also no I believe.

Chris did that, that's why he swears by it. He started with BH as a rocker at age 20 in 1993. However I think you're better off having different domains to draw from, but that BH is a very accurate domain that should be included in any aspiring jazzer's method.

I personally add BH to my blues-bop stew method that I've engineered.

[Strat-itis]

Besides some chordal moves and the harmonized scale, most of my studies have been focused on Barry Harris's "single line" methods. I study with one of Barry's old bandmates and friends--been four/five years now? Helps me stay focused and find deeper ways to apply all the runs and mechanisms through different tunes.

I knew chord scales, enclosures, arpeggios, and such. I could understand them and "play" them--but my practice never really sounded... musical. Even when I played chord scales over tunes, the scales sounded separate from the tune. Even chord tone studies didn't sound like the tune until I comp'ed the chords to it all. I took lessons, studied in college, did a BUNCH of ear training, transcribed a bit, and it didn't click.

When I started studying Barry Harris's Method--or whatever you want to call it--I heard a cohesion between my scale practice and the tune practice. If I got very strict with how I played the exercises and runs, I found that I was also working on my time and rhythm. Nothing got me to really address harmonic rhythm quite like Barry Harris's approach. Studying the approach has even given me a systematic way to improve my technique. Practice felt musical. I felt like I was practicing music that sounded like music--sounds obvious, but that was NOT the case for me before. Helps me stay motivated. There isn't as much guess work involved, but you can still study the method quite deeply.

I think you still have to do transcription and listen to the music. I have more ways to make sense of what I hear with the Barry stuff, but I still have to listen and imitate from the music.

Didn't Chris Parks say he learned the Barry Harris method from the onset? I wish I came across Barry's stuff earlier in my studies, but maybe not first thing.

I also experienced this. It felt like a more musical approach that integrated into the raw materials I already had. Plus it was refreshing to see an eminent jazz musician's methodology that focused around line building from applied structure. Rather than the pure raw material approach, or listen and figure it out approach that you usually encounter. I felt like bop lines clicked better after studying it.

[GuyBoden]

Talk Jazz by Roni Ben-Hur is based on the Barry Harris method.

(I think this book has been highly recommended by many forum BH fans. I have the book too.)


See contents below:

[Christian Miller]

My experience has been that most guitarists coming to jazz are not in a position to go straight to Barry Harris stuff.

OTOH that doesn’t mean they can’t get there and can’t be introduced some concepts early.

But mostly - look, Barry Harris played us lines in class. And he was one of the Greats. You could just listen to him and copy his lines which he explained how to make and learn jazz that way, because he was a legitimate source. It was a roast and he didn’t slow things down. You developed your ear and chops by having your butt kicked.

You aren’t going to get that listening to Joe Blogs on YouTube myself most definitely included. I mean, YouTube is at best a learning resource. You can’t learn to play from it, obviously.

Two things bother me.

First, Barry has become such a bandwagon online the waters get muddy. Even good info like Chris’s channel is getting taken out of context which I understand bothers him. Nature of the beast I’m afraid - none of us can fix that.

Second thing - much more important to me is the ethos and context. I feel a pitfalll is people using the Barry harris method as a sort of mechanical solution for jazz. Just the new chord scale theory…. But, the most important aspects of BH method was, I’m afraid, Barry.

I’ve had students come to me who can play all the scale exercises much better me and they still feel they still don’t know how to come up with bop lines.

So how do you fill this void? Well, luckily we have his workshops on video. We have the masters he listened to. They always give you ideas.

It’s much important to use your ears than learn a system. In my case it was using my ears that led me back to Barry’s door.

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[AllanAllen]

Christian, how nice of you to confirm my bias.

[Christian Miller]

Christian, how nice of you to confirm my bias.

Well I think you are on the right track

Most people out there (including me) are selling things on Patreon etc, that’s the business model for YouTubers. I don’t think that’s necessarily in tension with providing useful educational content, but it is fundamentally about selling something.

What sells as a handout for a video etc is not necessarily the same as what I’d advise someone to work on in a lesson. I.e. you’d learn more by doing a Wes transcription yourself (however badly) than buying one.

You can’t learn passively, ultimately.

[Tal_175]

I agree that BH is oversold, and the barriers for a jazz guitar newbie to enter the BH world are often understated. The perceived obscurity of BH's teachings combined with his undeniable credibility created this marketing alchemy that should be studied in business schools. Interestingly, Barry Harris didn't monetize this potential but that's not to say that the potential has gone completely unnoticed by others, if you know what I mean.

I tend to separate Barry Harris concepts from his teaching. Barry Harris concepts don't teach you bebop; you can apply them in ways that sound more modern or personal. What made them bebop was how he applied them (as Christian pointed out). Unlike many of his students, nowadays I am more drawn to the wisdom of his approach rather than how he applied them.

There is also this perception that Barry Harris teachings form an alternative musical universe, one where you eventually have to choose between the blue pill and the red pill. For many people including myself, Barry Harris's teachings is only one of the influences and perspectives that enriches your personal toolset.

[GuyBoden]

If you read and understand the contents of the BH method there is nothing new:

If you don't believe me, than take a look at the Ben-Hur book contents, based on the BH method. There's nothing new here:

[Navdeep_Singh]

I have integrated the BH harmonic system to organize the fingerboard into minor thirds, in order to play any standard. For example, in songs in C-Eb-Gb-A, I can play anything in open position, 3rd position, 6th position, 9th position, 12th position (minor 3rds). I can diagonally organize the fingerboard using drop 2s, drop 3s, drop 2 and 4ths, and switch from these into dyads and triads an so forth (octaves, 3rds, 6ths, 10ths, 13ths, spread triads, etc).

The BH system allows me to play far more pianistically, and view the guitar as a true solo instrument (I also play 8 string guitar, which has an extra string set compared to 6 string guitars and also uses the Low A in regular 7 string guitars).

It’s taken me a while to get here, but I’m finally here.

Conversely, I don’t use the BH system for lines.

[Christian Miller]

I agree that BH is oversold, and the barriers for a jazz guitar newbie to enter the BH world are often understated. The perceived obscurity of BH's teachings combined with his undeniable credibility created this marketing alchemy that should be studied in business schools. Interestingly, Barry Harris didn't monetize this potential but that's not to say that the potential has gone completely unnoticed by others, if you know what I mean.

I tend to separate Barry Harris concepts from his teaching. Barry Harris concepts don't teach you bebop; you can apply them in ways that sound more modern or personal. What made them bebop was how he applied them (as Christian pointed out). Unlike many of his students, nowadays I am more drawn to the wisdom of his approach rather than how he applied them.

There is also this perception that Barry Harris teachings form an alternative musical universe, one where you eventually have to choose between the blue pill and the red pill. For many people including myself, Barry Harris's teachings is only one of the influences and perspectives that enriches to your personal toolset.

That red pill/blue pill narrative is very sticky on line

There are differences, quite fundamental differences in philosophy between BH and more mainstream approaches. There are also overlaps.


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[AllanAllen]

I have integrated the BH harmonic system to organize the fingerboard into minor thirds, in order to play any standard. For example, in songs in C-Eb-Gb-A, I can play anything in open position, 3rd position, 6th position, 9th position, 12th position (minor 3rds). I can diagonally organize the fingerboard using drop 2s, drop 3s, drop 2 and 4ths, and switch from these into dyads and triads an so forth (octaves, 3rds, 6ths, 10ths, 13ths, spread triads, etc).

The BH system allows me to play far more pianistically, and view the guitar as a true solo instrument (I also play 8 string guitar, which has an extra string set compared to 6 string guitars and also uses the Low A in regular 7 string guitars).

It’s taken me a while to get here, but I’m finally here.

Conversely, I don’t use the BH system for lines.

How did you go about it? Chris Parks, Alan Kingston, the workshop DVDs? Something else entirely? It seems like you've ended up where I'm trying to get with this stuff.

I like deconstructing licks, arpeggio and scale patterns for single line playing, I have enough of that I'm working on. What I'm looking for are comping concepts. The bonus is, the way I think about single lines, I can apply comping concepts directly to solos.

[PickingMyEars]

Thought it wasn't wise to post that last comment.

GuyBoden knows . Anyway, yes bandwagons totally water down what was originally taught.

The popularity with "Barry's Chromatic Scale" annoyed the shit out of me. Everyone HAD to discuss that and the half-step rules, as if they was the end all be all of the Barry Harris Method.

That, and how so many on Youtube wanted to turn the Barry Harris Method into another Chord Scale Theory. Best way to get out of that mess is to pay attention to rhythm. Barry said it all the time, "rhythm rules the world!"

He didn't say scales are supreme, but that's how the bandwagon understands it...

Also, Barry DEFINITELY advised to listen and lift from the masters. He never said "just study my method and all will be revealed." I went to his classes, studied with his former bandmates and students. Barry was deeper than that!

So to StringAddict and anyone else interested in studying the Barry Harris Method, try to find someone who knows about rhythm and listening to the masters. If they only give brief mention of rhythm or mention some strong beat/weak beat shit and call it a day--they don't understand Barry's teachings. Downbeats, harmonic rhythm, triplets, the and's--that's only scratching the surface.

I love how Charles McPherson (a student of Barry's) talks about rhythm with Ethan Iverson:

"Many people think that how they commit to the metronomic beat is the only game in town. But in bebop, the game in between this beat and the next one is really the main game.

The gap between the beats is the moment of real creativity because once you do this [claps hands], it’s a done deal. The space before is the realm of thinking, possibility and the creative moment!

The real secret to improvising is to be alive in the space and not just alive here [claps hands].

We can look at the brain and you can see what activity is working at the moment. Now to the average player and even the good player too: if you could see brain activity, you’d see all this activity at the downbeats but in between the gaps, it would probably be flatline. There’s nothing going on and then all of a sudden there is activity again.

That ain’t right.

The improviser has to be totally alive throughout the whole spectrum of a bar. Not just a downbeat of a bar, in a micro beat way not just a macro beats.
All the “ups,” “ands” the “a’s.” If you take a whole bar and split it up you have: whole notes, half notes and dotted quarter notes, and quarter notes and eighth notes and sixteenths. Now when you slice them up into all of these little pieces, I say the consciousness of the improvising player should be very much alive on all of these little beats. That means that one should be able to start a phrase on any of that and come out right down the pike.
There’s none of that, “I’m only alive when that next beat comes up…”

If I were to point to you and say “Play now!” you would be playing and you would have something to play."

TT 570: Interview with Charles McPherson - by ETHAN IVERSON

The whole interview is worth a read! Charles McPherson articulates the poetry and permanence of rhythm in ways I never could--because he's a master of the craft and another DEEP teacher. Speaking of Charles McPherson and Barry Harris, here's one last recommendation:

<font color="#363737"><span style="font-family: Spectral">

[Navdeep_Singh]

How did you go about it? Chris Parks, Alan Kingston, the workshop DVDs? Something else entirely? It seems like you've ended up where I'm trying to get with this stuff.

I like deconstructing licks, arpeggio and scale patterns for single line playing, I have enough of that I'm working on. What I'm looking for are comping concepts. The bonus is, the way I think about single lines, I can apply comping concepts directly to solos.

Barry’s DVDs and materials and Alan’s book. RIP Alan. Barry fro me is a harmonic way of playing songs (constant V7-I cadences and replacements thereof). The lines (half step rules and so forth) I never got into.

My thinking was: how do I organize this instrument to play songs on a solo level? That’s the technical and musical problem that required a solution. Barry has all the answers, and they can help you organize the fingerboard accordingly as well.

I just divided the fingerboard into minor 3rds, ie, 3 fret intervals. And various string sets for drop 2, drop 3, drop 2 and 4, triads, dyads. Dyads ere mainly octaves, 3rds, 10ths, 6ths, 13ths, mainly.

Credit to Thomas Echols for designing his elevator system. It made sense to me, when I read it, because i was already developing my way of organizing the music. I accept all his formulations, except I have my own “octave chords” and I ignored his partial voicing shell chords (or what he called shell chords, my definition of a shell chord is R-3-7 or R-3-6).

The lines thing is much more difficult to quantize or systemize—how do you develop melodies on an improvised level? Pat Metheny said you can get a degree in harmony. But melody? No way.

[StringAddict]

Barry’s DVDs and materials and Alan’s book. RIP Alan. Barry fro me is a harmonic way of playing songs (constant V7-I cadences and replacements thereof). The lines (half step rules and so forth) I never got into.

My thinking was: how do I organize this instrument to play songs on a solo level? That’s the technical and musical problem that required a solution. Barry has all the answers, and they can help you organize the fingerboard accordingly as well.

I just divided the fingerboard into minor 3rds, ie, 3 fret intervals. And various string sets for drop 2, drop 3, drop 2 and 4, triads, dyads. Dyads ere mainly octaves, 3rds, 10ths, 6ths, 13ths, mainly.

Credit to Thomas Echols for designing his elevator system. It made sense to me, when I read it, because i was already developing my way of organizing the music. I accept all his formulations, except I have my own “octave chords” and I ignored his partial voicing shell chords (or what he called shell chords, my definition of a shell chord is R-3-7 or R-3-6).

The lines thing is much more difficult to quantize or systemize—how do you develop melodies on an improvised level? Pat Metheny said you can get a degree in harmony. But melody? No way.

Great advice in this thread. Yes I have been doing Thomas Echols approach for 9 months now and can see how powerful for solo guitar it will be after a few more years of keeping up at it, he really put his work in with that whole thing.

[AllanAllen]

I just divided the fingerboard into minor 3rds, ie, 3 fret intervals. And various string sets for drop 2, drop 3, drop 2 and 4, triads, dyads. Dyads ere mainly octaves, 3rds, 10ths, 6ths, 13ths, mainly.

I don’t get the minor 3rd thing. It’s it for organizing the inversions?

[Navdeep_Singh]

I don’t get the minor 3rd thing. It’s it for organizing the inversions?

Go up every 3 frets. Want to play in C on the top 4 strings (correlates to a drop 2 form)? Start at open, 3rd position, 6th position, 9th position, 12th position. (Ie, 3 frets) By the way, you can start at the same spots in the keys of Eb, Gb and A.

Want to to play in E on the top 4 strings? Start at 1st position, 4th position, 7th position, 10th position, 13th position). By the way, you can stat at the same spots in the keys of G, Bb, Db.

Want to play in F on the top 4 strings? Start at 2nd position, 5th position, 8th position, 11th position, 14th position. By the way, you can stat at the same sports in the keys of Ab-B-D.

As far as I know, I am the only person I know who has mapped out the fingerboard to correspond with all 12 keys, in this way.

PS: want it play in the keys of C-Eb-Gb-A on the strings 5432? Start one position below the top 4 string sets-2nd position, 5th position, 8th position, 11th position, 14th position.

PS: want it play in the keys of E-G-Bb-Db on the strings 5432? Start one position below the top 4 string sets-open, 3rd position, 6th position, 9th position, 12th position.

PS: want it play in the keys of F-Ab-B-D on the strings 5432 (correlates to a drop 2 form? Start one position below the top 4 string sets-1st position, 4th position, 7th position, 10th position, 13th position.


I have it worked out so I don’t have to think about anything and just do it.