Question to Barry Harris Line Building Disciples

[AllanAllen]

can we stick with C?

What do these positions mean? Not the fret right? Bb isn't in C major. Are we talking about C major? Are we talking about chords.... or what?

C 6 would be

xx2213

xx5555

xx7988

xx(10)(12)(10)(12)

I don't see the minor thirds.

[Navdeep_Singh]

I’m using the conventional terminology for guitar playing, where the left hand index finger is:
“A position is way of expressing where fretting fingers are placed in relation to frets. In first position, for example, the first finger corresponds with fret one, the second finger with fret two, the third finger with fret three and the fourth finger with fret four. However, in second position, every finger is moved up by one fret so that the first finger corresponds with fret two, the second finger with fret three, the third finger with fret four, and the fourth finger with fret five. Note that the name of the position comes from the fret number that corresponds with the first finger. “

[Navdeep_Singh]

So, in 3rd position in the key of C, find out where to make the drop 2 C6 on the 1st four strings. Or as near as possible to 3rd position. And the triad. And find out how to make the associated diminished chord in 3rd position (or as close as possible). Then the G7 (V7) of C. Then the family of four dominants G7-Bb7-Db7-E7. Then the family of four m6 chords built from the same diminished chord.

You have to know Barry’s diminished scale of chords and how to build the family of 4 dominants and family of 4 m6. Each chord gives you a particular sounding voicing. Play with the family of 4 as “brothers and sisters”. Then play with the other family of four as “Brothers and sisters”. Then mix and match the 4 dominants and 4 m6s. Then you can go back to the Dim chord. Resolve to the C6 when you want.

Then do the same thing three frets up, in 6th position. Then in 9th position. Then in 12th position.

That’s just for the top four strings. The possibilities are large and the sequences are infinite.

It takes a LONG time to get it internalized in the brain and under the fingers. For me, it’s worked. But it took a long time.

[PickingMyEars]

Whew. I still need to explore the harmony parts of Barry Harris's teachings.

There's so much depth to the harmonic and line building aspects of Barry Harris's pedagogy.

For line building, there's a ton. Off the top of my head...

1. Scale running -- much simpler than the scales CST often suggests

2. Pivots

3. Surrounds -- enclosing every note, not just chord tones

4. Half steps

5. Ascending chromatics -- this is where you get the "Barry Harris Chromatic Scale"

6. Arpeggios -- triad + octave of first note (augmented triads work GREAT with this form)

7. Chords -- seventh chord arpeggios

8. Maj6 diminished and Min6 diminished (tunes like "Softly as in a Morning Sunrise" and "I'll Remember April" are perfect)

9. Parents (?) -- starting the chord from the 3rd, 5th, and 7th (G7 that would be Bm7b5, Dm7, and Fmaj7)

10. Diminished family

There's more, and I probably made mistakes with the labels.

Rhythmic intention is REALLY what makes all the above work. I can't emphasize the rhythm enough. The execution and communication of all these ideas relies on rhythm. I think if Barry Harris was still alive (RIP) he would talk more about the rhythmic aspect. He always stresses triplets, which are easier said than done. He was also big on 3:4, which I mentioned on that "Pedagogy of Music and Rhythm" thread in this subtopic. I might just post both interviews with Charles McPherson on that thread (one with him and Steve Coleman and the one I posted on this thread). You can't play bebop without rhythm. You can't play jazz without rhythm. Shit, you can't play music without rhythm.

Imitation from the masters is key, but you don't have to write everything down. As long as you know where that DOWNBEAT is, get those rhythms as exact as possible when you play them. My mistake was agonizing over writing the rhythm down, but you have to be able to play it to internalize it. Do that, and you'll get so much of the rhythm. The frustration I have is with everyone posting transcriptions and analyzing the harmony. Here's the 9th of Gm7 going to the b13th of C7. Honestly, there's enough of that all over the internet--Youtube, I'm looking at you! Nah, analyze the rhythm--that's the organization of the notes within the phrase AND the transformation of those notes into music. Rhythm is what makes that interesting line of notes memorable to everyone that digs the music.

There's so much, but that is what makes all this music so damn interesting and fun to play!

EDIT: I found an older thread on Barry Harris Line Building and towards the end, a bunch of members over here were talking about RHYTHM!!! Really exciting to see that. Sometimes I feel like I am an old man yelling at clouds with all the rhythm shit

[AllanAllen]

So, in 3rd position in the key of C, find out where to make the drop 2 C6 on the 1st four strings. Or as near as possible to 3rd position. And the triad. And find out how to make the associated diminished chord in 3rd position (or as close as possible). Then the G7 (V7) of C. Then the family of four dominants G7-Bb7-Db7-E7. Then the family of four m6 chords built from the same diminished chord.

You have to know Barry’s diminished scale of chords and how to build the family of 4 dominants and family of 4 m6. Each chord gives you a particular sounding voicing. Play with the family of 4 as “brothers and sisters”. Then play with the other family of four as “Brothers and sisters”. Then mix and match the 4 dominants and 4 m6s. Then you can go back to the Dim chord. Resolve to the C6 when you want.

Then do the same thing three frets up, in 6th position. Then in 9th position. Then in 12th position.

That’s just for the top four strings. The possibilities are large and the sequences are infinite.

It takes a LONG time to get it internalized in the brain and under the fingers. For me, it’s worked. But it took a long time.

Cool, that all makes sense to me as I read it. Now I just need to get it all under my fingers. I pulled out Kingstone’s book and the chord scales are easier than I remember. I must’ve improved along the way.

[StringAddict]

Whew. I still need to explore the harmony parts of Barry Harris's teachings.

There's so much depth to the harmonic and line building aspects of Barry Harris's pedagogy.

For line building, there's a ton. Off the top of my head...

1. Scale running -- much simpler than the scales CST often suggests

2. Pivots

3. Surrounds -- enclosing every note, not just chord tones

4. Half steps

5. Ascending chromatics -- this is where you get the "Barry Harris Chromatic Scale"

6. Arpeggios -- triad + octave of first note (augmented triads work GREAT with this form)

7. Chords -- seventh chord arpeggios

8. Maj6 diminished and Min6 diminished (tunes like "Softly as in a Morning Sunrise" and "I'll Remember April" are perfect)

9. Parents (?) -- starting the chord from the 3rd, 5th, and 7th (G7 that would be Bm7b5, Dm7, and Fmaj7)

10. Diminished family

There's more, and I probably made mistakes with the labels.

Rhythmic intention is REALLY what makes all the above work. I can't emphasize the rhythm enough. The execution and communication of all these ideas relies on rhythm. I think if Barry Harris was still alive (RIP) he would talk more about the rhythmic aspect. He always stresses triplets, which are easier said than done. He was also big on 3:4, which I mentioned on that "Pedagogy of Music and Rhythm" thread in this subtopic. I might just post both interviews with Charles McPherson on that thread (one with him and Steve Coleman and the one I posted on this thread). You can't play bebop without rhythm. You can't play jazz without rhythm. Shit, you can't play music without rhythm.

Imitation from the masters is key, but you don't have to write everything down. As long as you know where that DOWNBEAT is, get those rhythms as exact as possible when you play them. My mistake was agonizing over writing the rhythm down, but you have to be able to play it to internalize it. Do that, and you'll get so much of the rhythm. The frustration I have is with everyone posting transcriptions and analyzing the harmony. Here's the 9th of Gm7 going to the b13th of C7. Honestly, there's enough of that all over the internet--Youtube, I'm looking at you! Nah, analyze the rhythm--that's the organization of the notes within the phrase AND the transformation of those notes into music. Rhythm is what makes that interesting line of notes memorable to everyone that digs the music.

There's so much, but that is what makes all this music so damn interesting and fun to play!

EDIT: I found an older thread on Barry Harris Line Building and towards the end, a bunch of members over here were talking about RHYTHM!!! Really exciting to see that. Sometimes I feel like I am an old man yelling at clouds with all the rhythm shit

Rhythm is definitely the most important part - any tips on how to ingrain rhythms when you transcribe? Just playing the solo transcription over and over and transcribing multiple solos has helped me but there must be a better way to really "own" some rhythms in between the downbeats

[PickingMyEars]

Patrick Bartley always says to transcribe it yourself, and not to worry about writing it down. Christian said the same on the forum and elsewhere. Listening and writing down is different than listening and committing it to your instrument--and ultimately, your body--as you internalize the music. The former inclines you towards knowing via analysis, the latter aligns with doing and performance. I transcribed with the former for too long.

Knowing where the downbeat, the big ONE of the measure, helps you frame the pulse and understand how the phrase is rhythmically constructed. My teacher helped me switch from tapping on 2 and 4--and not knowing where the hell I was in the music--to tapping on 1 and 3 on one foot and 4 on the other. Even if you don't know the exact subdivisions of the rhythm you are playing--framing it all against the downbeat helps you hear how it functions. You can hear notes functionally in a key center or chord progression. You can hear rhythms functionally within a measure, phrase, or form section of musical time (AABA and such). You learn them by feel, but that is only PART of the process.

The other part is to start phrases at different parts of the measure. Barry Harris has an exercise for that where he takes a line with a half step rule and edits the line to start on each part of the measure. Someone with better PDF posting prowess could post that here, it's in one of his spiral workshop books. Greg Fishman taught me something similar. The key is to get every part of the measure to sound differently, just like every note sounds different in context.

There is a caveat. Rhythm and melody are forever intwined. Separating rhythm from everything else, as is the case in most music education, does NOT help us access the true rhythm of the music. They work together. Rhythm colors the notes and can control how the notes sound even more so than the harmony. Rhythm and melody should be studied as ONE. Unfortunately, that often mistranslates to "chord tones must fall on strong beats." I've listened to a lot of Hal Galpher, and I need to reread FORWARD MOTION. I don't think Galpher said all chord tones need to align on strong beats. Google AI totally gets Barry Harris wrong as well!

Always aligning chord tones on strong beats does NOT sound like bebop and Barry Harris did NOT suggest that practice. I've gotten into arguments across youtube about that strong/weak beat shit. Better to learn that rhythm colors the sound of the note, then to place a strong beat dictum on chord tones.

There's a lot more, but that would be repeating a lot of what was discussed on the "Music Pedagogy and Rhythm" thread. I was just happy to find other people on this thread discussing the importance of rhythm unprovoking by my frequent "yelling at clouds" mentality I am hoping that we get into the true rhythmic/melodic relationship with that "JIMMY RANEY BOOK Study Group" thread. Jimmy and Jon Raney understood the complexity of rhythm FAR better than me. Charlie Parker was a rhythmic genius, but we all got swept up in his harmony and melodic athleticism.

[dasein]

Did you jump right in with this or wait until you were already playing decent bop / jazz to start seriously practicing this stuff (his single line approach, not harmony)?

No, I could already play jazz, but it still took some work to get down.

I first moved to NYC around 2011, and I started going to Barry Harris's workshops very shortly afterwards. I had heard about them, but I had no idea what to expect. I brought my electric, because "surely they'll have amps I can use." Stupid, stupid, stupid. Of course they had no amps, and I couldn't even hear myself.

At that time, the class was basically held in a school gym. There were probably close to 100 people in the room, every instrument you can imagine, and people of every background. Adults, kids, retirees, amateurs, college students from the NYC jazz programs, professionals, and even a couple Hare Krishna types(??). He'd run 3 classes back to back (harmony, voice, and improv). It'd end about 1:00AM. There was no curriculum, per se, no agenda. Barry just kind of picked stuff by feel, and there was very little in the way of explanation. Maybe it'd be a line in all 12 keys, maybe some scale stuff, going over tunes (rhythm bridge and Cherokee bridge were very popular). The first few classes for any student were always rough. It took a while for you to get used to the exercises and terminology. And the tempos were always brisk. No warmup, no gradually speeding things up. A quick count off, and go. You either got a very quick explanation ("Bb7 from root down to b9, go") or you played it by ear.

He was delightfully grouchy and cantankerous. He was a bebop guy through and through. Bird, Dizzy, Bud, and Monk were his gods; everyone who came after them were essentially his peers, and he had no qualms with talking shit about any of them. Modal music? Forget it. Poor Dave Liebman got it worse than anyone. Seemingly every week: "this cat, what's his name, Liebman? Talking about how he's tired of playing just eighth notes. Why doesn't he learn to play a damn triplet?"

I would suggest anyone who's serious about this stuff to do two things:

- look at the YouTube videos of the workshops he did in The Hague
- get the official workshop DVDs

The workshop DVDs are actually considerably more organized than his actual workshops were, so you'd definitely get your money's worth. But the important thing about seeing the actual workshops in action is not just seeing the material, but also seeing what the expectations were for how proficient you should be playing this stuff. Fast, clean, in time, in the context of a tune, with enough mastery that you can vary it relatively easily.

He wasn't a teacher that would say, "oh, let's make this easier until you can get it down." Nor was he a teacher that'd say, "that sounds terrible, get it together." I suspect, if he had a philosophy, it was something like, "I've got 100 people in a room. For any exercise, half the people won't be able play it immediately, and maybe 5-10 people can play everything. But we're playing Bebop with a capital "B." This is the standard, and the people who want to play this music bad enough will work hard enough they can reach it."

[Christian Miller]

No, I could already play jazz, but it still took some work to get down.

I first moved to NYC around 2011, and I started going to Barry Harris's workshops very shortly afterwards. I had heard about them, but I had no idea what to expect. I brought my electric, because "surely they'll have amps I can use." Stupid, stupid, stupid. Of course they had no amps, and I couldn't even hear myself.

At that time, the class was basically held in a school gym. There were probably close to 100 people in the room, every instrument you can imagine, and people of every background. Adults, kids, retirees, amateurs, college students from the NYC jazz programs, professionals, and even a couple Hare Krishna types(??). He'd run 3 classes back to back (harmony, voice, and improv). It'd end about 1:00AM. There was no curriculum, per se, no agenda. Barry just kind of picked stuff by feel, and there was very little in the way of explanation. Maybe it'd be a line in all 12 keys, maybe some scale stuff, going over tunes (rhythm bridge and Cherokee bridge were very popular). The first few classes for any student were always rough. It took a while for you to get used to the exercises and terminology. And the tempos were always brisk. No warmup, no gradually speeding things up. A quick count off, and go. You either got a very quick explanation ("Bb7 from root down to b9, go") or you played it by ear.

He was delightfully grouchy and cantankerous. He was a bebop guy through and through. Bird, Dizzy, Bud, and Monk were his gods; everyone who came after them were essentially his peers, and he had no qualms with talking shit about any of them. Modal music? Forget it. Poor Dave Liebman got it worse than anyone. Seemingly every week: "this cat, what's his name, Liebman? Talking about how he's tired of playing just eighth notes. Why doesn't he learn to play a damn triplet?"

I would suggest anyone who's serious about this stuff to do two things:

- look at the YouTube videos of the workshops he did in The Hague
- get the official workshop DVDs

The workshop DVDs are actually considerably more organized than his actual workshops were, so you'd definitely get your money's worth. But the important thing about seeing the actual workshops in action is not just seeing the material, but also seeing what the expectations were for how proficient you should be playing this stuff. Fast, clean, in time, in the context of a tune, with enough mastery that you can vary it relatively easily.

He wasn't a teacher that would say, "oh, let's make this easier until you can get it down." Nor was he a teacher that'd say, "that sounds terrible, get it together." I suspect, if he had a philosophy, it was something like, "I've got 100 people in a room. For any exercise, half the people won't be able play it immediately, and maybe 5-10 people can play everything. But we're playing Bebop with a capital "B." This is the standard, and the people who want to play this music bad enough will work hard enough they can reach it."

This is exactly how it seemed to me. Well described….

I mean my enduring memory of the classes is actually goofing around swapping ‘you’ for ‘me’ in the titles of jazz standards.

Anyway, I second your recommendations and agree with everything you’ve said here.

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[CliffR]

No, I could already play jazz, but it still took some work to get down.

I first moved to NYC around 2011, and I started going to Barry Harris's workshops very shortly afterwards. I had heard about them, but I had no idea what to expect. I brought my electric, because "surely they'll have amps I can use." Stupid, stupid, stupid. Of course they had no amps, and I couldn't even hear myself.

At that time, the class was basically held in a school gym. There were probably close to 100 people in the room, every instrument you can imagine, and people of every background. Adults, kids, retirees, amateurs, college students from the NYC jazz programs, professionals, and even a couple Hare Krishna types(??). He'd run 3 classes back to back (harmony, voice, and improv). It'd end about 1:00AM. There was no curriculum, per se, no agenda. Barry just kind of picked stuff by feel, and there was very little in the way of explanation. Maybe it'd be a line in all 12 keys, maybe some scale stuff, going over tunes (rhythm bridge and Cherokee bridge were very popular). The first few classes for any student were always rough. It took a while for you to get used to the exercises and terminology. And the tempos were always brisk. No warmup, no gradually speeding things up. A quick count off, and go. You either got a very quick explanation ("Bb7 from root down to b9, go") or you played it by ear.

He was delightfully grouchy and cantankerous. He was a bebop guy through and through. Bird, Dizzy, Bud, and Monk were his gods; everyone who came after them were essentially his peers, and he had no qualms with talking shit about any of them. Modal music? Forget it. Poor Dave Liebman got it worse than anyone. Seemingly every week: "this cat, what's his name, Liebman? Talking about how he's tired of playing just eighth notes. Why doesn't he learn to play a damn triplet?"

I would suggest anyone who's serious about this stuff to do two things:

- look at the YouTube videos of the workshops he did in The Hague
- get the official workshop DVDs

The workshop DVDs are actually considerably more organized than his actual workshops were, so you'd definitely get your money's worth. But the important thing about seeing the actual workshops in action is not just seeing the material, but also seeing what the expectations were for how proficient you should be playing this stuff. Fast, clean, in time, in the context of a tune, with enough mastery that you can vary it relatively easily.

He wasn't a teacher that would say, "oh, let's make this easier until you can get it down." Nor was he a teacher that'd say, "that sounds terrible, get it together." I suspect, if he had a philosophy, it was something like, "I've got 100 people in a room. For any exercise, half the people won't be able play it immediately, and maybe 5-10 people can play everything. But we're playing Bebop with a capital "B." This is the standard, and the people who want to play this music bad enough will work hard enough they can reach it."

Lol! That sounds like PE/Gym class, but maybe even more humiliating .

[Christian Miller]

Lol! That sounds like PE/Gym class, but maybe even more humiliating .

Nah nobody really noticed when you got it wrong. Including you sometimes

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[PickingMyEars]

I mean, if you acted the fool and wouldn't shut up--Barry would let you know in front of everyone.

He was an old school teacher who didn't suffer bullshit lightly. He got miscast as a grouchy old man, especially with those comments about Bill Evans. Barry Harris was a great musician and an even better educator. Honestly, we can't forget that he was a master musician who played with many of our jazz heroes.

Living in NYC allowed me to attend more than a couple of his classes. I'd invite friends as well. One day, I decided to stay and play guitar with the vocalists. He looked over at me after I played and said nothing. I heard later that meant he didn't hate my playing. Still glad I got to attend some of his classes and shake his hand. Meant a lot to me, still does.

I also remember getting chewed out by Dave Liebman when he came to do a masterclass at my college. I sat in his seat. I was stupid, and didn't know better. Hopefully I'm all the wiser entering my 40s.

[AllanAllen]

I also remember getting chewed out by Dave Liebman when he came to do a masterclass at my college. I sat in his seat. I was stupid, and didn't know better. Hopefully I'm all the wiser entering my 40s.

I can see why Barry didn't like this guy...

[PMB]

This is exactly how it seemed to me. Well described….

I mean my enduring memory of the classes is actually goofing around swapping ‘you’ for ‘me’ in the titles of jazz standards.

Anyway, I second your recommendations and agree with everything you’ve said here.

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Yes, that's how I remembered them as well. The first classes I attended, we were all singing 'Memories of You' (or should that be 'Memories of Me'?) in the vocal session. I'd planned to catch a late night gig at 55bar and tried to make a quiet exit before things wound up. Barry pointed at me and shouted, "Where do think you're going? Sit down, you're one of the best singers here!".

[Christian Miller]

I can see why Barry didn't like this guy...

Does anyone?


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[Christian Miller]

Yes, that's how I remembered them as well. The first classes I attended, we were all singing 'Memories of You' (or should that be 'Memories of Me'?) in the vocal session. I'd planned to catch a late night gig at 55bar and tried to make a quiet exit before things wound up. Barry pointed at me and shouted, "Where do think you're going? Sit down, you're one of the best singers here!".

Bloody hell, he said I was a good singer too. Baffling.


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[AllanAllen]

Does anyone?


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I don’t even know who he is besides his mention in this thread. Maybe I like him?

[Christian Miller]

I don’t even know who he is besides his mention in this thread. Maybe I like him?

He can be rather abrasive. I have heard some stories… actually I don’t think Barry would have a problem with that at all.

Playing wise far too modern for Barry.


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[djg]

I don’t even know who he is besides his mention in this thread. Maybe I like him?

he is on one of the most iconic recordings of jazz. Elvin Jones Live At The Lighthouse. so good.

[James W]

I don’t even know who he is besides his mention in this thread. Maybe I like him?

I mostly know him for his great work with Miles Davis.

[djg]

He can be rather abrasive. I have heard some stories… actually I don’t think Barry would have a problem with that at all.

Playing wise far too modern for Barry.

he didnt have it easy. polio vaccination came a few years too late for him. edit: he is the smiling kid looking like a grown-up.

[dasein]

I mean, if you acted the fool and wouldn't shut up--Barry would let you know in front of everyone.

He was an old school teacher who didn't suffer bullshit lightly. He got miscast as a grouchy old man, especially with those comments about Bill Evans. Barry Harris was a great musician and an even better educator. Honestly, we can't forget that he was a master musician who played with many of our jazz heroes.

Oh, let me perfectly clear: I loved his grouchy old man act. He had fully earned it. It's easy to forget: Charlie Parker was born in 1920, Miles and Trane in '26, Barry Harris in '29, and Sonny Rollins in '30. Barry was about half a generation behind the original beboppers. He could absolutely go off on Miles, because he was his peer.

It wasn't just Bill Evans, either. I remember one class, he went off on a tangent on how he believed that Miles Davis and Coltrane's modal experiments should be blamed for Thelonious Monk's mental breakdown. The whole class was stunned. Then we went off and played a few more things, before he came back and said, "Now, I know I'm talking about a lot of your heroes here... but one day, you're gonna realize that I'm right."

Now, if some 20 year old Manhattan Conservatory student tried to pull that line, I'd be all over them. But when Barry said something like that, you just shrugged and chuckled. He was allowed to do it. John Coltrane wasn't SAINT JOHN COLTRANE to him, he was the quiet tenor player he showed some harmonic tricks to back in Detroit. It was the same if you had ever hung out with Lou Donaldson at the bar after a set (exact same generation, too).

And I also want to be clear: his cantankerous rants do not define him. Barry was an incredibly generous, devoted teacher who never judged anyone who came to his class. He had a great sense of humor. I saw him do a set at the Vanguard when he was pushing 90, and while his chops weren't quite what they used to be (as if anyone in their ninth decade could claim that) he was still playing at a high level. He lived his best life, and for a bebopper who started in the 1940's to live to 91 practically makes him Methuselah.

[dasein]

he is on one of the most iconic recordings of jazz. Elvin Jones Live At The Lighthouse. so good.

This is a great record. I bought the transcription book of this years ago, which has every Liebman and Grossman solo. I have no idea why I did it, because they're all completely impossible to play.

[Strat-itis]

It wasn't just Bill Evans, either. I remember one class, he went off on a tangent on how he believed that Miles Davis and Coltrane's modal experiments should be blamed for Thelonious Monk's mental breakdown. The whole class was stunned. Then we went off and played a few more things, before he came back and said, "Now, I know I'm talking about a lot of your heroes here... but one day, you're gonna realize that I'm right."

Oh man. I agree with how traditional he was about the music, although everyone has their own approach. In my interpretation, Monk's breakdown was due to the jazz golden age ending. You can see it come on in 1969 and then by the 70s he'd lost it.

Chris was also equally dogmatic when I studied with him. No blues scale ever! I'm not a follower and had to be subversive. I actually base my playing on blues scale.

[AllanAllen]

he is on one of the most iconic recordings of jazz. Elvin Jones Live At The Lighthouse. so good.

Most iconic? No way.

Could be one of your favorites, but I’ve never heard of this album or any of the players besides Jones. Never seen it on a top album list, never seen it mentioned on the various online Jazz groups I frequent.

That being said, I’m totally going to check it out.