Minor 6 substitution for dominant chords

[Ivan2794]

Hello !!
I'm working on using m6 arpeggio to improvise on dominant chords.
I know than on D7 i can use mainly am6, d#m6 and cm6.
Its easy To use the am6... but I have a hard time trying To use the other two in the context of a ii V I..
Any help ? Do someone have examples I could hear ?
Thanks a lot
Ivan

[wolflen]

Hello !!
I'm working on using m6 arpeggio to improvise on dominant chords.
I know than on D7 i can use mainly am6, d#m6 and cm6.
Its easy To use the am6... but I have a hard time trying To use the other two in the context of a ii V I..
Any help ? Do someone have examples I could hear ?
Thanks a lot
Ivan

Just some ideas that may help

Learn all the inversions of the minor 6 chords in all keys and positions

Note: the Min 6 has the same notes as a Dom9th chord--Min7b5 and a dom7b13 (#5) b9

A Min6 A C E F# 1 b3 5 6
D9 no Root F# A C E 3 5 b7 9
F#min7b5 F# A C E 1 b3 b5 b7
Ab7#5b9 no root C E F# A 3 #5 b7 b9

There are alot of scale choices here

for the Dom chords use the Melodic minor half step higher -

experiment with different minor scales over each chord..Dorian..harmonic..melodic..and the pentatonic and try some exotic scales

also,,Find the chords that are in the minor scales..this will help your harmonic development alot..

hope this helps

[Mick-7]

I'm working on using m6 arpeggio to improvise on dominant chords. I know that on D7 i can use mainly am6, d#m6 and cm6. Its easy To use the am6... but I have a hard time trying yo use the other two in the context of a ii V I.

There is a simpler way to think of this.... (there usually is).

Am6 + Cm6 + Ebm6 = the Bb/Db/E/G diminished scale(s) without the note Db/C# {= Bb-C-(Db/C#)-Eb-E-F#-G-A}.

In other words, you are playing dim. scale arpeggios over the V7(b9) chord, but you've omitted the major 7th (C#) over the D7.

This is interesting, because people usually think of playing a different set of dim. scales over D7, i.e., the Eb/F#(Gb)/A/C dim scale(s).

Also:
Am6 = D7 [no root]: A-C-E-F#

D#/Ebm6 = Ab9 [no root]: Eb-Gb-Bb-C {Ab7 is the b5 sub for D7}

Cm6 = Am7b5: C-Eb-G-A {Am7b5 is the relative IIm7(b5) chord of D7 and = D7b9sus}.

[pamosmusic]

There is a simpler way to think of this.... (there usually is).

Am6 + Cm6 + Ebm6 = the Bb/Db/E/G diminished scale(s) without the note Db/C# {= Bb-C-(Db/C#)-Eb-E-F#-G-A}.

In other words, you are playing dim. scale arpeggios over the V7(b9) chord, but you've omitted the major 7th (C#) over the D7.

This is interesting, because people usually think of playing a different set of dim. scales over D7, i.e., the Eb/F#(Gb)/A/C dim scale(s).

Also:
Am6 = D7 [no root]: A-C-E-F#

D#/Ebm6 = Ab9 [no root]: Eb-Gb-Bb-C {Ab7 is the b5 sub for D7}

Cm6 = Am7b5: C-Eb-G-A {Am7b5 is the relative IIm7(b5) chord of D7 and = D7b9sus}.

Your definition of “simpler” is always very special, Mick

[pamosmusic]

Hello !!
I'm working on using m6 arpeggio to improvise on dominant chords.
I know than on D7 i can use mainly am6, d#m6 and cm6.
Its easy To use the am6... but I have a hard time trying To use the other two in the context of a ii V I..
Any help ? Do someone have examples I could hear ?
Thanks a lot
Ivan

Any minor lick will do. I have this collection of kind of meat and potatoes minor licks, sorted by the triad inversion they come from. The inversion bit isn’t super important except that it lets you voicelead through a tune with just cool licks, and that’s rather satisfying.

Anyway. Check out the first one in each group — Cry Me a River, Jim on Stella, and Misty or Honeysuckle Rose

minor vocab.pdf - Google Drive

Take each one and try to resolve it to the chord you’re going for. In your example, that’s D7 to presumably G.

So using Cry Me a River as an example … it ends on the root of the triad, so you might play it on the Am and resolve to G or B, the root or third of the G chord.

You might play the Ebm and resolve that Eb to D or E.

You might play the Cm and resolve that C to B. Or maybe D if you’re desperate.

Anyway. I love collecting licks like this. For really killing and simple to incorporate minor vocab, Grant Green is probably your first and last stop. Find one and see if you can untangle how the line resolves.

[Mick-7]

Your definition of “simpler” is always very special, Mick

Well it's not "any minor lick will do," I'll give you that.

I believe he asked about using a particular set of minor 6 arpeggios, not how to resolve minor licks in general, which is a much broader subject - but perhaps my reply was too theoretical.

How do you practice this, Peter? - minor vocab.pdf - Google Drive

Or do you practice it in any sort of formal way?

[Christian Miller]

Hello !!
I'm working on using m6 arpeggio to improvise on dominant chords.
I know than on D7 i can use mainly am6, d#m6 and cm6.
Its easy To use the am6... but I have a hard time trying To use the other two in the context of a ii V I..
Any help ? Do someone have examples I could hear ?
Thanks a lot
Ivan

I learned this sub by studying solos by Charlie Christian, specifically I Found a New Baby and Rose Room.

But afaik Charlie doesn’t use the D#m6 sub, (the tritones minor/altered). That is a sub that becomes common in bebop, so that’s where I would look for examples.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[pamosmusic]

Well it's not "any minor lick will do," I'll give you that.

I believe he asked about using a particular set of minor 6 arpeggios, not how to resolve minor licks in general, which is a much broader subject - but perhaps my reply was too theoretical.

How do you practice this, Peter? - minor vocab.pdf - Google Drive

Or do you practice it in any sort of formal way?

Yeah generally when someone is having trouble with a theoretical concept, replacing it with an even more esoteric concept isn’t the solution.

And my point was that leaning into vocabulary is the move and that any minor vocabulary can be subbed in this way, even if it isn’t a straight up m6 arpeggio. If you play a decent bit of vocabulary, the resolutions are kind of just staring you in the face and it becomes fairly obvious how to weave it into lines.

If you’re fishing for what sounds good, you can be tricked into thinking you’re struggling with the harmony. You’re probably struggling with the melody though.

[pamosmusic]

As for how I would work on it, I’ll maybe try a video later.

I have some things that are cool with how it’s organized, but also they’re just nice licks so do whatever you do with nice licks.

[AllanAllen]

Peter, you should add the first line of Harlem Nocturne to your list. It’ll be really recognizable for new students.

[pamosmusic]

Peter, you should add the first line of Harlem Nocturne to your list. It’ll be really recognizable for new students.

Ah nice!

I also added the Habanera in a later version which is hiding in a folder somewhere

[pamosmusic]

I learned this sub by studying solos by Charlie Christian, specifically I Found a New Baby and Rose Room.

But afaik Charlie doesn’t use the D#m6 sub, (the tritones minor/altered). That is a sub that becomes common in bebop, so that’s where I would look for examples.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yeah it’s very American Songbook swingy …

ii-V-I … Am7 D7 G

becomes

IV-iv-I … C6 Cm6 G

So good. Honestly, for that one, just diving into a tune like Stella will probably get you working up some ideas.

[AllanAllen]

Ah nice!

I also added the Habanera in a later version which is hiding in a folder somewhere

I’ve been wanting to make a lead sheet for that since I heard this.

[rpjazzguitar]

Playing a Cm arp (or maybe Cm6) against D7 is something Charlie Christian did beautifully. I can't recall hearing it much from other guitarists.

It's a D7b9 sound, but with a G instead of an F#. Am7b5 (A C Eb G) over D7 is another way to think about it.

The great players all seem to have their own take on harmony.

[Mick-7]

If you’re fishing for what sounds good, you can be tricked into thinking you’re struggling with the harmony. You’re probably struggling with the melody though.

The op did imply that when he said:

It's easy to use the Am6... but I have a hard time trying to use the other two in the context of a ii V I.

Am6 over D7 is diatonic, it is just D9, whereas the other two chords are altered, albeit common alterations because Cm6 & Ebm6 are natural minor chords, i.e., G minor. Therefore, I'd be more apt to use them if the one chord is Gm rather than G major.

[pamosmusic]

The op did imply that when he said:

Nah. He didn’t ask why they work or what they sound like. He asked how to make them work and wanted examples. My guy is missing the vocabulary bit.

Am6 over D7 is diatonic, it is just D9, whereas the other two chords are altered, albeit common alterations because Cm6 & Ebm6 are natural minor chords, i.e., G minor. Therefore, I'd be more apt to use them if the one chord is Gm rather than G major.

Eh?

[Christian Miller]

Yeah it’s very American Songbook swingy …

ii-V-I … Am7 D7 G

becomes

IV-iv-I … C6 Cm6 G

So good. Honestly, for that one, just diving into a tune like Stella will probably get you working up some ideas.

Thinking about the most common examples of the minor 6 up a half step on dominant chords are actually chordal. 3 x 3 4 4 4 (Abm6 on G7 or G7b9b13 as most people call it.) incredibly common and everyone plays it.

I'm struggling to think of melodic examples from the music. I'm sure there are some somewhere.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mick-7]

Thinking about the most common examples of the minor 6 up a half step on dominant chords are actually chordal. 3 x 3 4 4 4 (Abm6 on G7 or G7b9b13 as most people call it.) incredibly common and everyone plays it.

I'm struggling to think of melodic examples from the music. I'm sure there are some somewhere.

It's not uncommon, but as I said, going to minor:

[pamosmusic]

It's not uncommon, but as I said, going to minor:

Extremely common going to major too.

It’s the tritone sub. As is the Cm. That’s the back door dominant … think the D7susb9 or whatever it is in Embraceable You.

[Mick-7]

[/QUOTE]


It does sound like a Monk lick if you go to F# (e.g., G^7) rather than F.... Ask me Now?

[pamosmusic]

Correction:

”As is the Cm” … Cm is not the tritone sub, I meant that Cm is also very common going to Gmajor.

Also realizing now that you were referencing Christians post about the minor up a half step (tritone minor) but your example was the minor down a whole step.

[Strat-itis]

Some are harder to apply than others, you have to use your ear. Imo, it's basically the BH family of dominants but expanded with minor.

In C: G7.

Dominant fam subs: G7, Bb7, Db7, E7 and the chord scales such as mix.

You can also use the minor a 4th down for any of them and the chord scales such as melodic minor.
D-6, F-6, Ab-6, B-6.

Or tweak it further and use dorian for a Pat sound.

[ragman1]

Everybody's said it but I'll say it again.

This is a very old chestnut. Over G7 use Dm, Fm and/or Abm for different effects. The Dm will give you a more diatonic effect, the Fm will give you a 13b9 effect, and the Abm gives you the altered scale.

Tip: The m6 idea (i.e. Fm6 and Abm6 instead of just Fm and Abm) is a shorthand for using the melodic minor scales (i.e. F melodic minor and/or Ab melodic minor over G7).

I'm putting it crudely but it's all good stuff. The best, and probably the only, way to discover this is to actually play these ideas and see the effects they produce.

[Mick-7]

This is a very old chestnut. Over G7 use Dm, Fm and/or Abm for different effects. The Dm will give you a more diatonic effect, the Fm will give you a 13b9 effect, and the Abm gives you the altered scale.

Tip: The m6 idea (i.e. Fm6 and Abm6 instead of just Fm and Abm) is a shorthand for using the melodic minor scales (i.e. F melodic minor and/or Ab melodic minor over G7).

A different scale for each of these minor 6th chords is not a practical approach. As I said earlier, the diminished scale will include them all.

[pamosmusic]

A different scale for each of these minor 6th chords is not a practical approach. As I said earlier, the diminished scale will include them all.

And will sound like ……. ?

I think you’re forgetting that ragman need only play one of those sounds at a time. So a scale for each of them, if that’s how he chooses to think about it, really isn’t too terribly cumbersome