Formulaic Improvisation

[Tal_175]

He's not saying much so I'll speak for him. There are some vids around but the short answer is yes. He does play in the usual jazz way on standards, etc, and is excellent. Possibly one of the best here since he does it in public not just for the forum.

His foray into free expression, or whatever it's called, is probably an inevitable extension of that. But I wouldn't know.

He already replied to my post with a recording of one of his gigs (post #39).

[Mark Kleinhaut]

He's not saying much so I'll speak for him. There are some vids around but the short answer is yes. He can and does play in the usual jazz way on standards, etc, and is excellent. Possibly one of the best here since he does it in public not just for the forum.

His foray into free expression, or whatever it's called, is probably an inevitable extension of that. But I wouldn't know.

Wait, who? What?

[Mick-7]

The point was about what’s needed for creativity. I argue that you can be creative with zero technical skills. You can prove that by sitting down at a piano or drumset (assuming you like I can’t play shit on those instruments) yet you or I can 100% be creative.

I don't understand you, how can you be "100% creative" if you don't know how to play the instrument, how to make the sounds you want to hear? You can be creative but your self expression will be limited by your lack of knowledge and skill.

[Mark Kleinhaut]

I don't understand you, how can you be "100% creative" if you don't know how to play the instrument, how to make the sounds you want to hear? You can be creative but your self expression will be limited by your lack of knowledge and skill.

I didn’t say it would be good. It will be very rough and unaccomplished. Nobody would want to listen to it.

[kris]

I don"t understand this discussion.
I think it"s about the creativity of musicians in jazz music, not the creativity of children in the sandbox.
I"m moving away from here.

[Rodney Gene]

Kris, I isolated this one sentence from your comments, so perhaps it’s unfair to take this out of context, but the idea you express here is one I completely disagree with due to the implication that mastery on an instrument is prerequisite to creativity. I would suggest it’s actually the opposite

I see it as both myself.

I had this conversation just last night with my wife - we have both used our creativity to make a great living over the past 3 decades. Going from young and broke to older and thriving, some of those bumps in the road wake you up. I find that creativity is most / more effective (meaning free to unfold ideas, reveal ideas, spark spontaneous inspiration etc) when it has a framework to work with.

When it has form only - (writing, music, acting etc) it certainly has it's own momentum and can produce exceptional output - but it is limited. When combined with a framework (knowledge, direction, application, understanding, technique etc) it has a much greater path to 'mastery'. (And everybody fills in their own definition of mastery)

In some cases, creativity comes after knowledge by default, if the form is strict. I think a great example is Judit Polgár.

[Mick-7]

I didn’t say it would be good. It will be very rough and unaccomplished. Nobody would want to listen to it.

I suppose you're just agreeing with these people?

"Education is a method whereby one acquires a higher grade of prejudices." – Laurence J. Peter

“Self-education is, I firmly believe, the only kind of education there is.” - Isaac Asimov

"Education is an admirable thing, but it is well to remember from time to time that nothing that is worth knowing can be taught." – Oscar Wilde

[charlieparker]

Why doesn"t this whole discussion touch on the technical aspect of jazz playing....?
Proficiency in each musical instrument makes it easier to play jazz music.
Once you have mastered the instrument, creativity comes easily.
Playing at the right tempos teaches humility and exposes technical shortcomings in playing the instrument.
Playing jazz is quite a challenge.

I strongly agree with this. In fact, I don't know many technically accomplished guitarists who can't play jazz well, presuming they have actually invested some effort.

In fact, most if not all that I hear on this forum who struggle have serious technical issues including myself. That's why I always appreciate Reg's advice to get your shit together technically first.

So I would say if you have got the chops you will be able to play jazz at a decent level.

There are probably a few whose technique is lacking, who probably can still improvise at a good to high level but that's much rarer, IMO.

[befiddled]

Attachment 129749

Apparently, I’m a dissatisfied Type 1.

[Mark Kleinhaut]

I don"t understand this discussion.
I think it"s about the creativity of musicians in jazz music, not the creativity of children in the sandbox.
I"m moving away from here.

Well, as you know, these discussions ramble all over the place around here so it becomes about many things. I was merely making a point that we could all stand to have a little more childlike sand in our daily work. Most everyone I know here and most places takes this all so seriously. Too much growing up I’m afraid.

[ragman1]

I don't understand you, how can you be "100% creative" if you don't know how to play the instrument, how to make the sounds you want to hear? You can be creative but your self expression will be limited by your lack of knowledge and skill.

Mick, you're doing what they all do, confusing creativity with some kind of expressive activity like playing jazz. One can very easily do all those things and not be creative in the real sense at all. There's no creativity when the ego gets involved. Is someone who says 'I am expressing myself' creative or just immature? They can throw bombs and say they're expressing themselves!

Someone who is using music or poetry because they want to be admired has missed the boat. Someone with very little knowledge and limited skill can still play or paint creatively because they have a certain something and it'll show in what they do. And they may not bother doing anything at all.

[ragman1]

Well, as you know, these discussions ramble all over the place around here so it becomes about many things. I was merely making a point that we could all stand to have a little more childlike sand in our daily work. Most everyone I know here and most places takes this all so seriously. Too much growing up I’m afraid.

That's it, precisely. We're all too clever, too educated, too refined. It's the fault of the system, really. Which doesn't mean we should go and live in a cave. It's not much fun living in a cave!

[Mick-7]

I don't understand you, how can you be "100% creative" if you don't know how to play the instrument, how to make the sounds you want to hear? You can be creative but your self expression will be limited by your lack of knowledge and skill.

Mick, you're doing what they all do, confusing creativity with some kind of expressive activity like playing jazz. One can very easily do all those things and not be creative in the real sense at all. There's no creativity when the ego gets involved. Is someone who says 'I am expressing myself' creative or just immature? They can throw bombs and say they're expressing themselves!

I understand your point, however, the word "self" could be omitted from this sentence I wrote without changing it's meaning: "You can be creative but your (self) expression will be limited by your lack of knowledge and skill." Knowledge and skill do not stymie creative expression, they nourish it.

Someone who is using music or poetry because they want to be liked and admired has missed the boat.

I agree, you've described modern media, e.g., YouTube, in one sentence.

Which doesn't mean we should go and live in a cave. It's not much fun living in a cave!

Apparently, it wasn't all that bad.....

[ragman1]

I understand your point, however, the word "self" could be omitted from this sentence I wrote without changing it's meaning: "You can be creative but your (self) expression will be limited by your lack of knowledge and skill." Knowledge and skill do not stymie creative expression, they nourish it.

Yes, obviously any form of expression is enhanced the more knowledge and skill one has.

But the word self is quite interesting. What is this self that says it wants to express? Express what? It's own miseries? That's what most people mean although they'd never admit it.

[Mick-7]

Yes, obviously any form of expression is enhanced the more knowledge and skill one has.

But the word self is quite interesting. What is this self that says it wants to express? Express what? It's own miseries? That's what most people mean although they'd never admit it.

You're sounding quite Zen, rm.

[ragman1]

I am tonight. I should probably stop before it gets out of hand :-)

[ragman1]

By the way, re your cave painting, I've always wondered at those paintings. We tend to assume that the humans of that time must have been rather dull and primitive yet that artwork shows extraordinary sensitivity. We really don't know much, do we?

[kris]

Well, as you know, these discussions ramble all over the place around here so it becomes about many things. I was merely making a point that we could all stand to have a little more childlike sand in our daily work. Most everyone I know here and most places takes this all so seriously. Too much growing up I’m afraid.

I"m afraid that the most accurate saying here is:
"People become childish in their old age..."
Best
Kris

[GuyBoden]

Personally, I'll admit that since I've started playing Jazz standards again (last 3-4 years), I've been stealing lots of licks from the great Jazz recordings.

By listening to these recording my ear tells me what licks I'd like to copy, but as ever, I know what I like and like what I know.

Jazz guitar is only a hobby and enjoyment is my main consideration.

[mr. beaumont]

Too much growing up I’m afraid.

There's something liberating about getting older and realizing that you don't know shit.

[kris]

There's something liberating about getting older and realizing that you don't know shit.

I haven"t looked at jazz books for 10 years, and yet I know what to practice.
I practice a lot on the guitar... maybe too much, but I like it.
There are very cool videos of guitar luthiers on the internet.
I like to watch it and I like to refine guitars.
Just like a child....

[GuyBoden]

Jimmy Heath's early Bird style playing.

Scooby-sax JEN Presentations

[Strat-itis]

Gonna jump in with my opinion even tho the thread is long and it's branched into a few topics.

1. Guy's formulaic improv post - I agree with this and the others that proficiency in at least some imitation of the masters is required to play the style you want. If you want to play completely free, make up your own idea what jazz or music is, or play mediocrely, then that's fine, but to play well in any idiom, some proficiency in imitation of it is required. I think most or all of the greats employed what's outlined in the formulaic improv OP.

Disagree with ragman initially saying that this doesn't lead to music with life or your own voice. I wouldn't assume Guy was posting this implying you ONLY copy and don't play your own ideas. The imitation is to learn the style and vibe of the music you like, gain some proficiency of its scaffolding, and pick up some licks. Not ONLY play licks you pick up.

2. Mark bringing up creativity vs structure - It's not a binary. Both creativity and proficiency are required for the music to sound good. Creativity with no proficiency sounds bad (Kris's joke about kids in the sandbox), and Proficiency with no creativity sounds bad. You need both.

3. Kris's tangent about technique - Also required. You need proficiency on the instrument itself and you need to be able to execute the required motions with your hands to make the right sounds. This topic is called technique.