Formulaic Improvisation

[kris]

Good point, learning the instrument is an essential and related topic, but a different topic, maybe covered in other threads.

Kris, you can play very well, so how did you learn the Jazz language?

Did you copy Jazz licks from the great Jazz recordings and use them in your playing?

Mark,
At the beginning of my adventure with jazz, I tried to improvise completely unconsciously.
I just played the way I felt and didn"t think about what the so-called Jazz language is.
That"s how I played in the 70s – I feel like that.At that time, there was a lot of jazz on the radio and I listened passionately to jazz standards.
I was mainly focused on how to get the standard's heads right... The improvisations were maybe not so good, but certainly not conscious.
In the 1980s I started seriously importing books from Aebersold...I started copying licks and analyzing Parker's, Davies's solos... and others.
It was my learning to play consciously...I"ve never played learned licks - they have always been creatively adapted... I played as if it were my own.
I'm still learning... even though I studied classical guitar, the technique is the basis of playing jazz.

[Mark Kleinhaut]

Learning some bebop heads is good for technique, I remember trying to figure out how to play e.g. Donna Lee or Scrapple from the Apple, that took a lot of building up dexterity in both left and right hand.

After that, playing complex lines in 8th notes became a bit easier, at least technique-wise.

When I was a music student of Ted Dunbar at Rutgers (50 years ago omfg) he layed Donna Lee on us newbies saying it might be the most important bebop head ever written. He said you could skip all the transcribing and Omni books and just work this one tune because it held all of the critical language we’d ever need. Of course he went on to point out 100 other tunes we needed to learn. Tunes and ear trading were the whole enchilada.

[James W]

Kris, I isolated this one sentence from your comments, so perhaps it’s unfair to take this out of context, but the idea you express here is one I completely disagree with due to the implication that mastery on an instrument is prerequisite to creativity. I would suggest it’s actually the opposite

Agreed.

[kris]

Kris, I isolated this one sentence from your comments, so perhaps it’s unfair to take this out of context, but the idea you express here is one I completely disagree with due to the implication that mastery on an instrument is prerequisite to creativity. I would suggest it’s actually the opposite

We can differ on this topic and that is very good.
From my point of view: the more I get to know, for example, new scales that I play in various exercises - new creative horizons open up for me.
Somewhere I heard an interview with K. Rosenwinkel, who practices Bach"s cello suites arr.for guitar... He does it only at home for himself.
In music school, I played Bach on the classical guitar – it"s beautiful.I believe that technique is closely related to creativity.
I like to improve my technical skills...:-)

[kris]

When I was a music student of Ted Dunbar at Rutgers (50 years ago omfg) he layed Donna Lee on us newbies saying it might be the most important bebop head ever written. He said you could skip all the transcribing and Omni books and just work this one tune because it held all of the critical language we’d ever need. Of course he went on to point out 100 other tunes we needed to learn. Tunes and ear trading were the whole enchilada.

I had one of Ted Dunbar"s books... It was not an interesting book, I am sorry to say.I bought it because there were few educational materials at that time.
A few examples of 2 5 1 played in different keys from what I remember - a lot of pages.
I have dozens of books by outstanding musicians.
I stopped buying jazz books .

[Mark Kleinhaut]

I had one of Ted Dunbar"s books... It was not an interesting book, I am sorry to say.I bought it because there were few educational materials at that time.
A few examples of 2 5 1 played in different keys from what I remember - a lot of pages.
I have dozens of books by outstanding musicians.
I stopped buying jazz books for a dozen or so years.

I never got much out of any books, including his. But when he was sitting 3 feet in front of you explaining and playing it, man it was really alive.

[kris]

I never got much out of any books, including his. But when he was sitting 3 feet in front of you explaining and playing it, man it was really alive.

I know that feeling.
In 1986, John Scofield came up to me in a jazz club and played a few pieces on my guitar... I was shocked.

[mr. beaumont]

While I'm not sure if mastery is even possible, having technical skill is important in being able to express yourself. There's not much more frustrating than hearing an idea and not being able to execute it.

[kris]

While I'm not sure if mastery is even possible, having technical skill is important in being able to express yourself. There's not much more frustrating than hearing an idea and not being able to execute it.

+1
That"s exactly how it is.
ps.
It"s the same: when you practice the phrase of Ch. Parker or P. Martino, you have to overcome a technical barrier.

[Mark Kleinhaut]

While I'm not sure if mastery is even possible, having technical skill is important in being able to express yourself. There's not much more frustrating than hearing an idea and not being able to execute it.

The point was about what’s needed for creativity. I argue that you can be creative with zero technical skills. You can prove that by sitting down at a piano or drumset (assuming you like I can’t play shit on those instruments) yet you or I can 100% be creative.

[mr. beaumont]

The point was about what’s needed for creativity. I argue that you can be creative with zero technical skills. You can prove that by sitting down at a piano or drumset (assuming you like I can’t play shit on those instruments) yet you or I can 100% be creative.

I agree on that too.

However, jazz is an idiom...if you're willing to break from it completely, then the world is wide open. But if you want to improvise freely within the context of a jazz tune, you gotta be able to play!

I see this in Chicago...we have jazz musicians who can play free, and others who only play free. One is not necessarily better than the other, but here's a difference in the way they sound.

[Mark Kleinhaut]

I agree on that too.

However, jazz is an idiom...if you're willing to break from it completely, then the world is wide open. But if you want to improvise freely within the context of a jazz tune, you gotta be able to play!

I see this in Chicago...we have jazz musicians who can play free, and others who only play free. One is not necessarily better than the other, but here's a difference in the way they sound.

Absolutely. I love playing free as much as playing standards and I pretty much can’t stand listening to those who don’t incorporate a healthy blend of both. Yes, you can always tell.

[Tal_175]

Absolutely. I love playing free as much as playing standards and I pretty much can’t stand listening to those who don’t incorporate a healthy blend of both. Yes, you can always tell.

Mark, I like your free style but do you ever experiment with playing standards in-time as opposed to free (or rubato)? By in-time I mean adhering to a song's form, and time signature with a consistent pulse. Like how you would perform a tune if you show up to a standards gig and share a stage with people you've never played before but everyone knows the tunes in the set.

[Mark Kleinhaut]

Mark, I like your free style but do you ever experiment with playing standards in-time as opposed to free (or rubato)? By in-time I mean adhering to a song's form, time signature with a consistent pulse. Like how you would perform a tune if you showed up to a standards gig and share a stage with people you've never played before but everyone knows the tunes in the set.

yes, done that a zillion times. But I don’t do those gigs with players who can’t get loose. Here’s a set from just before the pandemic with a trio. The bassinet and drummer were guys I met a half hour before the downbeat.

[kris]

yes, done that a zillion times. But I don’t do those gigs with players who can’t get loose. Here’s a set from just before the pandemic with a trio. The bassinet and drummer were guys I met a half hour before the downbeat.

I think that the bass player practices a lot.I like his technique and articulation...
Mark you play exelent chord voicing!

[Mark Kleinhaut]

I think that the bass player practices a lot.I like his technique and articulation...
Mark you play exelent chord voicing!

Kim Cass is a total monster!

[Mark Kleinhaut]

I think that the bass player practices a lot.I like his technique and articulation...
Mark you play exelent chord voicing!

Kim Cass is a total monster!

[ragman1]

The point was about what’s needed for creativity. I argue that you can be creative with zero technical skills. You can prove that by sitting down at a piano or drumset (assuming you like I can’t play shit on those instruments) yet you or I can 100% be creative.

Absolutely. One is creative or one is not. It's got nothing to do with any means of expression or the technique needed to play music, paint, or write. That essence is there or it's not. If it is there it shows in everything one does and is wholly unconscious. It doesn't magically appear when one picks up a guitar or a pen (if only).

[Mark Kleinhaut]

Absolutely. One is creative or one is not. It's got nothing to do with any means of expression or the technique needed to play music, paint, and all that. That spark is there or it's not. If it is there it shows in everything one does and is wholly unconscious. It doesn't magically appear when one picks up a guitar or a pen (if only).

Children are the most creative creatures alive!

[ragman1]

Because they're unself-conscious and not touched by the world. Yet.

[Mark Kleinhaut]

Because they're unself-conscious and not touched by the world. Yet.

We can aspire to be in that state of mind when we play. It’s at least partially possible.

[ragman1]

We can, but I'd say the very effort itself is false and would actually prevent real creativity from operating.

[Mark Kleinhaut]

We can, but I'd say the very effort itself is false and would actually prevent real creativity from operating.

You’ve probably read “effortless mastery” like most everyone here. Kenny speaks better than I ever can about working around the paradox of how we try to not try.

[ragman1]

I used to know someone who was naturally quite shy. He probably read in some kind of self-help manual that it was good to be more interested in others than oneself so he made great, and rather embarrassing, efforts to be terribly interested in you, what you were doing, how you were doing it, and so on.

It didn't go down too well but I think most people realised what he was trying to do and were somewhat kind about it.

[ragman1]

Mark, I like your free style but do you ever experiment with playing standards in-time as opposed to free (or rubato)? By in-time I mean adhering to a song's form, and time signature with a consistent pulse. Like how you would perform a tune if you show up to a standards gig and share a stage with people you've never played before but everyone knows the tunes in the set.

He's not saying much so I'll speak for him. There are some vids around but the short answer is yes. He can and does play in the usual jazz way on standards, etc, and is excellent. Possibly one of the best here since he does it in public not just for the forum.

His foray into free expression, or whatever it's called, is probably an inevitable extension of that. But I wouldn't know.