Imparting blues on subdominants?

[Strat-itis]

I like to try to use a bluesy style. This is easiest on stable chords like 1s or 4s. Also easy on 5 chords since they're dominant or function as dominant. I have trouble using my blues functionality on tunes with a lot of subdominant cycling like ATTYA, Autumn Leavz, and Stella etc. What are your tips?


Chatting with the bot, this is what we came up with:

First: subdominant harmony is: pre-resolution, open, non-authoritative, color-bearing.

It does not want: hard dominant blues, tonic swagger, declarative gestures. So the blues you use here must be soft-edged blues, not home-base blues.


Strategy:

1. Major blues, not minor blues (most of the time).

2. Blues by resolution direction, not scale.

Instead of sitting in a blues scale: Use blues notes as approach tones. Let them resolve into chord tones of the next subdominant.

3. Dorian-weighted phrasing with blues bends.


Also side question: Wtf do you call a chord that is stable and doesn't function as a dominant or subdominant but isn't limited to the tonic? Where the chord is a stable platform like the 1 OR the 4, even tho the 4 is technically labeled as a subdominant? Or like if the tune has a different key center where it's not the tonic, but it's a stable chord.

[pamosmusic]

I like to try to use a bluesy style. This is easiest on stable chords like 1s or 4s. Also easy on 5 chords since they're dominant or function as dominant. I have trouble using my blues functionality on tunes with a lot of subdominant cycling like ATTYA, Autumn Leavz, and Stella etc. What are your tips?


Chatting with the bot, this is what we came up with:

First: subdominant harmony is: pre-resolution, open, non-authoritative, color-bearing.

It does not want: hard dominant blues, tonic swagger, declarative gestures. So the blues you use here must be soft-edged blues, not home-base blues.


Strategy:

1. Major blues, not minor blues (most of the time).

2. Blues by resolution direction, not scale.

Instead of sitting in a blues scale: Use blues notes as approach tones. Let them resolve into chord tones of the next subdominant.

3. Dorian-weighted phrasing with blues bends.

Can you clarify these?

Like just with a key center, so I know what you mean?

Let's say you're in C, so you're talking about playing over the F6 or Fmaj7 chord or whatever. Can you describe 1, 2, and 3 in that context?

Also side question: Wtf do you call a chord that is stable and doesn't function as a dominant or subdominant but isn't limited to the tonic? Where the chord is a stable platform like the 1 OR the 4, even tho the 4 is technically labeled as a subdominant? Or like if the tune has a different key center where it's not the tonic, but it's a stable chord.

I don't know if there's a proper name for that, but the Lego Blocks dude calls a chord you just hang on for a second a "hover." Seems as good as anything else.

Like maybe bars 3-4 of Nica's Dream, where it goes from the Bbm6 and then just hangs out on the Abm6?

[Strat-itis]

Say I wanted to bust out bluez language at the start of ATTYA. F-7, Bb-7, Eb7, Abmaj7..

[pamosmusic]

Say I wanted to bust out bluez language at the start of ATTYA. F-7, Bb-7, Eb7, Abmaj7..

Hmm. I think there, I'd really just play some Ab blues stuff. Ab Bb C Db Eb ... or F Ab Bb B

[Strat-itis]

Yep. Probably best to keep it simple. This subdominant stream comes up a lot tho like on the tunes I mentioned. So I want to try to figure out a blues device for the (functional) ii's themselves, not blues over the tonic.

[wolflen]

Yep. Probably best to keep it simple. This subdominant stream comes up a lot tho like on the tunes I mentioned. So I want to try to figure out a blues device for the (functional) ii's themselves, not blues over the tonic.

Experiment with some pentatonic major and minor lines .. into some short licks that are classic..from Gershwin to Coltrane..that should give you many ideas.

[ragman1]

a blues device for the (functional) ii's themselves

Can you post any jazz recording of a tune where the player, guitar, sax, etc, does this? Kenny Burrell probably would. So would Grant Green and George Benson. Probably not to be confused with a lot of chromatic playing a la Metheny, Scofield, etc.

I mean, a minor chord speaks for itself, you've got the b5 note to play with. i.e. over Fm embellish your line with the nat B.

[Strat-itis]

That's a good idea. I will go rummage around and see what I find in the musicians' solos.

[djg]

Hmm. I think there, I'd really just play some Ab blues stuff. Ab Bb C Db Eb ... or F Ab Bb B

yea. first two bars rhythm changes in Ab. Ab Adim|Bbm7 Eb7|Em7 A7|Ab Ab7|Db etc

[ragman1]

That's a good idea. I will go rummage around and see what I find in the musicians' solos.

Find anything yet?

[buduranus2]

Blues is a sensibility. The difference between Lee Morgan and Shorty Rogers. It's not an idea. It's a feeling, a tonality, and a predisposition. So if you're a blues player Misty is a blues tune. The Abmi6 (iv of Ebmaj7) is just an opportunity to "bluesify" melodic minor. Go back and study BB King. He doesn't "play" chromatics but he "implies" them quite clearly. My two cents FWIW.

[Strat-itis]

I'm sure you're typing this from the porch of your shanty in the delta while sippin gin and chewing tobacco. Like I don't know that blues is a sensibility if I approach some aspects of music theoretically. Why don't you go study Lockjaw Davis.

[Strat-itis]

Find anything yet?

I've been busy but I'll get after it.

I'm consulting Ulf since he plays blues constantly.

[buduranus2]

I'm sure you're typing this from the porch of your shanty in the delta while sippin gin and chewing tobacco. Like I don't know that blues is a sensibility if I approach some aspects of music theoretically. Why don't you go study Lockjaw Davis.

Gee, that's not very nice. I've been listening to more Gene Ammons these days anyway. Sorry to have offended you. My apologies. Have a great evening.

[Strat-itis]

[ragman1]

I'm consulting Ulf since he plays blues constantly.

Sounds like a plan

[starjasmine]

Hmm. I think there, I'd really just play some Ab blues stuff. Ab Bb C Db Eb ... or F Ab Bb B

I saw this interesting YT vid that analyzed a bunch of Oscar Peterson stuff as basically ignoring the changes and playing blues in the key of the upcoming tonic resolution. This was really about turnarounds - he would ignore all the backcycling (iii - VI - ii - V) and just play a searing blues phrase based on the upcoming V-I. Unfortunately, I can't find it. If I do, I'll post it.

I think you could take that approach (play blues against the strong resolutions, ignoring all the backcycling and subs) elsewhere too, if you let your ear be your guide. I think budaranus put it cleverly: if you're a blues player, "Misty" is a blues tune :-)

Say I wanted to bust out bluez language at the start of ATTYA. F-7, Bb-7, Eb7, Abmaj7..

I had to try this out just for fun. For me F blues worked over all of it very easily, not surprisingly. Ab blues took a bit more use of the ear to avoid clams, but that might be because I'm not much of a blues player.

It was also fun to switch between blues scales like I was outlining the changes:
F-7 = F blues scale
Bb-7 = Bb blues scale or F blues scale
Eb7 = Eb blues scale or Bb blues scale or F blues scale or C blues scale
Abma7 = Ab blues scale or F blues scale

But... none of this is going to sound like authentic blues superimposed over jazz changes; to do that, you've got to learn idiomatic licks and vocabulary. I've spent a lot of time this past year learning ONE Joe B solo. It has improved my blues playing a LOT but I have a long way to go. When I use some of those stolen licks as described above, tho, it sounds pretty good :-) When I just noodle around on blues scales, well, it sounds like noodling around on blues scales.

[Strat-itis]

^ Yes absolutely. You can fit blues scales over anything. You shouldn't fit them over every scale for a realistic sound, but you should fit them over some chords and even delay changing scales for it to sound blues.

So it looks like I will have to defer to peter and bud.

Talking with the bot I came to the conclusion that to sound blues you're NOT following every change, that makes it sound jazz. You want to hang on one tonality for a bit. While you can use sneaky devices to make following the changes sound jazz.

Ulf actually does both which not many players do. He gets the down home sound going by holding the base blues tonality AND he follows the changes with bluesy language.

[pamosmusic]

Talking with the bot I came to the conclusion that to sound blues you're NOT following every change, that makes it sound jazz. You want to hang on one tonality for a bit. While you can use sneaky devices to make following the changes sound jazz.

I think Clifford Brown on September Song got me to that conclusion.

Ulf actually does both which not many players do. He gets the down home sound going by holding the base blues tonality AND he follows the changes with bluesy language.

Maybe a little more often than you might think then? Jim Hall on Stompin at the Savoy is a masterclass in that sort of thing. Anything Oscar Peterson or Clark Terry. Stan Getz. Moving in and out of that blues flavor is a big part of a lot of people’s sound.

[Strat-itis]

Maybe a little more often than you might think then? Jim Hall on Stompin at the Savoy is a masterclass in that sort of thing. Anything Oscar Peterson or Clark Terry. Stan Getz. Moving in and out of that blues flavor is a big part of a lot of people’s sound.

I'm aware of that thx. I'm currently studying Milt Jackson. He doesn't use a whole lot of down home gestures, it's more integrated.

[wolflen]

Two blues tunes lines I use in some improv settings

Mo Better Blues

All Blues

[olliehalsall]

Blues is a sensibility. The difference between Lee Morgan and Shorty Rogers. It's not an idea. It's a feeling, a tonality, and a predisposition. So if you're a blues player Misty is a blues tune. The Abmi6 (iv of Ebmaj7) is just an opportunity to "bluesify" melodic minor. Go back and study BB King. He doesn't "play" chromatics but he "implies" them quite clearly. My two cents FWIW.

There's a lovely video on YT of Roy Buchanan playing 'Misty'. I'm not sure he's outlining anything there scale-wise,he bends that tune into submission

[ragman1]

So I want to try to figure out a blues device for the (functional) ii's

Find anything yet? Apparently not. Why do you think that is?

1) Looking for the wrong thing

2) Looking for the right thing in the wrong place

3) Not looking

sorry, couldn't resist :-)

[Bob_Ross]

Chatting with the bot, this is what we came up with:

First: subdominant harmony is: pre-resolution, open, non-authoritative, color-bearing.

It does not want: hard dominant blues, tonic swagger, declarative gestures. So the blues you use here must be soft-edged blues, not home-base blues.

And you kept reading after that?!?!

I'm willing to entertain euphemisms like "color-bearing" and "tonic swagger" if I'm up late at night shooting the shit with other musicians ...and we're all drunk AF.

But with a bot?!?! I have zero tolerance for that crap.

[starjasmine]

Yeah, AI chatbots can spew drivel or they can provide really good info - and in both cases, they'll sound convincing.

I think AI is a great tool overall, but it is far from infallible. It helps to know a little bit about the subject you're researching, and to call the bot out on nonsense. It helps it to give better answers in the future.