Playing bebop with ONE scale

[Christian Miller]

Actually, I didn't comment on your video (but I did watch a fair bit of it), I replied to this comment:

Ok that’s fair enough. I felt I made the terminology I was using reasonably clear in the first few minutes.

But to clarify- You seem to have the dominant sale confused with the so-called ‘dominant bebop scale’ (which is a term I don’t tend to use - influence of Barry Harris.) The dominant scale is the same thing as the mixolydian, but with a sensible name.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mick-7]

Ok that’s fair enough. I felt I made the terminology I was using reasonably clear in the first few minutes.

But to clarify- You seem to have the dominant sale confused with the so-called ‘dominant bebop scale’ (which is a term I don’t tend to use - influence of Barry Harris.) The dominant scale is the same thing as the mixolydian, but with a sensible name.

o.k., so the "one scale" is the dominant scale? (a.k.a., mixolydian scale). I thought you may be talking about something more unusual, but what you're suggesting is that this common scale can be like a musical Swiss army knife for improvisation?

[Christian Miller]

o.k., so the "one scale" is the dominant scale? (a.k.a., mixolydian scale). I thought you may be talking about something more unusual, but what you're suggesting is that this common scale can be like a musical Swiss army knife for improvisation?

Yes


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Christian Miller]

o.k., so the "one scale" is the dominant scale? (a.k.a., mixolydian scale). I thought you may be talking about something more unusual, but what you're suggesting is that this common scale can be like a musical Swiss army knife for improvisation?

Actually I’m kicking myself for not using that analogy


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mick-7]

I've gone from thinking in scales to thinking in chord pairs. Omitting the "avoid note" C of the Gb major scale (4th) & Abm7/Db7 chords (maj. 3rd/7th) gives you this - but maybe easier to remember this as Dm + G6 than Dm + Em.

[Christian Miller]

There is no concept of the avoid note in Barry's teaching.

[Mick-7]

There is no concept of the avoid note in Barry's teaching.

Must be some concept of it, otherwise you'd just say play any note over any chord. This video is based on Barry's teaching? There's nothing revolutionary about the idea of playing the mixolydian scale over dominant chords.

[Christian Miller]

Must be some concept of it, otherwise you'd just say play any note over any chord. This video is based on Barry's teaching? There's nothing revolutionary about the idea of playing the mixolydian scale over dominant chords.

There is no concept of avoid notes in Barry's teaching. Certainly no discussion of things like 4ths on major or dominant chords.

But Barry's approach is linear and dynamic, while CST approaches come from thinking of everything as a static voicing.

Anyway it's not like CST, improvising from pitch sets over chords. You learn how to construct idiomatic bebop lines and you do most of this in the dominant scale for the first year or so. It's therefore important that you learn to apply this dominant scale language everywhere possible, which I show in the first half of the video. A large amount of bop vocabulary can be derived from the dominant scale, and I show examples of how to do this in the second half of the video.

If you can't be bothered to watch the thing, I'm not sure I can be bothered to explain it here because you clearly are not really interested in this specific approach, which is fine. I find it useful, but it's not like I'm trying to evangelise. Talking about it is always a poor relation to showing anyway.

[Mick-7]

There is no concept of avoid notes in Barry's teaching.

o.k., I didn't man to offend you. But that would mean his approach is no different than, say, Cecil Taylors.

"Avoid" notes = "Rejected" notes, so if you systematically choose certain notes over others to "construct idiomatic bebop lines," your approach does have avoid notes: the notes you avoid to construct your lines.

I suppose that's not the standard definition of "avoid note," but the standard definition doesn't really apply to improvisation.

[Christian Miller]

o.k., I didn't man to offend you. But that would mean his approach is no different than, say, Cecil Taylors.

"Avoid" notes = "Rejected" notes, so if you systematically choose certain notes over others to "construct idiomatic bebop lines," your approach does have avoid notes: the notes you're avoiding to construct your lines.

That's not the use of the term 'avoid note' within mainstream jazz edu.

In general I think the idea of not playing things that sound bad is a psychologically unhelpful way of thinking about improvisation. A better way IMO is to focus on things to play that sound good.

[Strat-itis]

There's nothing revolutionary about the idea of playing the mixolydian scale over dominant chords.

BH single note is about using the simplest device possible but being elegant and accurate to bop. Mix and major are the central scales for major playing. It's not a trick to use, it takes actual study but when you get it it sounds beautiful if you listen to Chris Parks. He plays exclusively with the BH system.

Obligatory contrarian post to the OP: Personally, after studying BH with Chris for a year and a half I've determined that simplifying things down to mostly mix and major is way too vanilla for me, even though there are other embellishment tricks. However I do have a personal simplifying model for my primary influence of Milt. I do not like focusing on major or mix as they're too vanilla for me. I do a similar thing tho for playing in major: I focus on dorian (over the 1), with minor and major blues scales. Plus my 5 chord spike devices. I will only go to major or mix for resolutions or for bop direction. This is to create a more continuously bluesy sound rather than just throwing in blues gestures.

[Mick-7]

That's not the use of the term 'avoid note' within mainstream jazz edu.

In general I think the idea of not playing things that sound bad is a psychologically unhelpful way of thinking about improvisation. A better way IMO is to focus on things to play that sound good.

I've heard it described as an ear training aid:

“Avoid note” is a teaching term used to train the ear to recognize melodic notes in agreement with a given chord and chord scale. The beginning jazz pianist needs to be able to hear and recognize the differences between seventh chord qualities and their corresponding tensions. Once this work has been accomplished, first begin to experiment with modes of the harmonic minor, harmonic major, and symmetrical scales. These parent scales will introduce newer sounds such as #11 on a minor chord and 9, 11, 13 on a minor 7b5 (harmonic minor). Eventually, the ear can learn to hear any note as “available.”

From: Simplifying Jazz Harmonic Theory with Suzanna Sifter - Berklee Online Take Note

[Christian Miller]

I've heard it described as an ear training aid:

“Avoid note” is a teaching term used to train the ear to recognize melodic notes in agreement with a given chord and chord scale. The beginning jazz pianist needs to be able to hear and recognize the differences between seventh chord qualities and their corresponding tensions. Once this work has been accomplished, first begin to experiment with modes of the harmonic minor, harmonic major, and symmetrical scales. These parent scales will introduce newer sounds such as #11 on a minor chord and 9, 11, 13 on a minor 7b5 (harmonic minor). Eventually, the ear can learn to hear any note as “available.”

From: Simplifying Jazz Harmonic Theory with Suzanna Sifter - Berklee Online Take Note

Yes it’s a ‘dissonant’ note within the chord scale. It’s not literally any note that sounds 'dissonant'.

Anyway if you want to hear musicians who play avoid notes all the time, there’s a genre of music called jazz that you might want to check out.

The avoid note thing is confusingly taught and consequently poorly understood by a lot of people imo. As others have pointed out here, it really is a concept mostly relevant to voicings. Some lines can be understood as arpeggiated voicings - but also, real world jazz lines contain many dissonant notes that help propel the line forward towards resolution. TBF Nettles and Graf (in the Berklee CST textbook) for instance do say this - and it should be obvious quite quickly to anyone who transcribes the music what falls neatly into the CST understanding and what feels like pushing square pegs into round holes.

The definition of what exactly is an avoid note and what isn't varies from source to source. This makes sense - dissonance being is very subjective according to musical style and personal taste. To non-jazz listeners, a lot of the notes that we think of as extensions or colours on the basic chord might sound dissonant. For this reason I reject the theoretical definitions usually given which I don’t think really work. I think it's an attempt to mathematically systematise something that is an organic outgrowth of human musical style. Which is to say, it's a dumb idea to begin with. Which notes of the scale would have been a 'dissonance' to Mozart is different for Gil Evans.

So, the 4th/11th is quite obviously a highly dissonant note on the major chord compared to the other note of the major scale (although not so much that some players don't actively incorporate it into voicings). In lines and melodies it becomes highly expressive for that reason. But a lot of the other ones I don't really agree with. The 4th/11th sounds a lot less dissonant on a dominant chord than it does on the major seventh chord (try it) and you see it a lot in the wild, for example.

Anyway Barry had a different way of teaching both lines and voicings (he taught them as separate topics) and the concept of the avoid note is unnecessary in his approach. For working on classic straightahead jazz language within style, I don't think it's very relevant.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[GuyBoden]

The video is very good. Clear, precise and simple.

It's easy, just play the Dom (or Bebop Dom, or tritone Dom, or Backdoor Dom) and then resolve to the tonic chord's 3rd then 5th notes.

Teaching Bebop can't get more simple than this, surely. I question, have people actually watched and understood the video.

[Christian Miller]

The video is very good. Clear, precise and simple.

It's easy, just play the Dom (or Bebop Dom, or tritone Dom, or Backdoor Dom) and then resolve to the tonic chord's 3rd then 5th notes.

Teaching Bebop can't get more simple than this, surely. I question, have people actually watched and understood the video.

Thanks Guy, I work very hard at that. Of course, Parker et al do a lot more than just this stuff, but he does do that stuff quite a lot.

Obviously, if I spend time getting into why it's OK to break this or that 'rule' that Barry never taught I'd have to sacrifice that anyway. I find this takes a lot of self discipline - as I'm sure you've noticed my natural tendency is always to get side tracked.

As I always say the big takeaway of Barry's approach - and what I recognise in other traditions of improvisation such as the classical/baroque thing - is that it's always practical and clean, and mostly ear oriented. The theoretical 'rules' get formulated later (and are often simplistic), often by people with an agenda beyond simply teaching people how to make music.

You aren't trying to teach everything at once. you just start with commonplace things that are useful and build a repertoire of 'moves' from there.

[garybaldy]

The video is very good. Clear, precise and simple.

It's easy, just play the Dom (or Bebop Dom, or tritone Dom, or Backdoor Dom) and then resolve to the tonic chord's 3rd then 5th notes.

Teaching Bebop can't get more simple than this, surely. I question, have people actually watched and understood the video.

At least one person has! How long it'll take to get under the fingers is something else.

[Mick-7]

Anyway if you want to hear musicians who play avoid notes all the time, there’s a genre of music called jazz that you might want to check out. \

Yes, it seems only mediocre jazz musicians like Randy Vincent have a use for the avoid note concept, e.g., in his book Line Games he says:
"The major hexatonic scale can be thought of in different ways. I originally conceived of it as a major scale with the potentially dangerous 4th step removed, making improvisation easier on major chords."

I think it's an attempt to mathematically systematize something that is an organic outgrowth of human musical style. Which is to say, it's a dumb idea to begin with.

Yes, systematic approaches to improvisation like, say, Barry Harris'es, are a dumb idea and should to avoided.

[Christian Miller]

Yes, it seems only mediocre jazz musicians like Randy Vincent have a use for the avoid note concept, e.g., in his book Line Games he says:
"The major hexatonic scale can be thought of in different ways. I originally conceived of it as a major scale with the potentially dangerous 4th step removed, making improvisation easier on major chords."

- My objection to the term 'avoid note' is a matter of educational technique. That's a disagreement I would have in this case.
- My objection to defining 'avoid notes' in the way that the Nettles and Graf book defines them is a separate matter - this is the bit that I think is a bit silly at best. NB: Levine doesn't make this definition.

I like Vincent’s beginners book. I haven’t read the others. I have enough on my plate as it is.

I have nothing against hexatonic scales or whatever other things you want to get into. That said, good musicians tend to make things sound good. Less good musicians, less so.

On that note I respectfully note that if you have to remove the 4th from the major scale to facilitate improv on major chords, this may be a skills issue rather than a problem with the major scale.

Luckily Randy’s Guitarist's Introduction to Jazz will help a student build those skills.

But, yes most people will agree that the fourth sounds quite dissonant on the major chord. I'm not actually disputing that at all, if you read what I wrote carefully. I wouldn't call it "dangerous" - I think it's more helpful to look at it as a very emotionally charged, tense note. And in Western music, that's how it is generally used, usually used to evoke melancholy or yearning with in the major tonality and resolving down by a half step to the third. I have encountered plenty of accented natural 4ths on major chords in jazz and as far as I know no one got hurt. In fact it may be the prettiest note in the scale if used right.

Removing the note and studying it separately might be worth doing. However, this is an idea AFAIK entirely outside the Barry Harris method which handles pretty much everything in a different way,

There are some lines in jazz that have a sort of hexatonic vibe to them. It's not unusual to find lines that include the major pentatonic notes along with the seventh for instance (I'm think of the melody of After you've Gone for example.)

Yes, systematic approaches to improvisation like, say, Barry Harris'es, are a dumb idea and should to avoided.

No I’m opposed to attempts to build a priori systematic theories about what sounds good and what doesn’t. I'm happy calling those dumb (at best).

That’s not the same thing as opposing systematic approaches to improvisation. I think those are helpful.

I hope you understand the distinction? It's quite a big one.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[James W]

I have nothing against hexatonic scales or whatever other things you want to get into. That said, good musicians tend to make things sound good. Less good musicians, less so. On that note I respectfully note that if you have to remove the 4th from the major scale to facilitate improv on major chords, this may be a skills issue rather than a problem with the major scale.

The hexatonic scale is just a particular sound or colour like the pentatonic scale. That's how I see it, not as facilitating improvisation but rather as a particular colour. That said, if you have to use the hexatonic scale to sound good then you should definitely use it. It's not a big deal really...

I’ve never for myself encountered a hexatonic scale in bop language specifically, but perhaps you have an example from the music.

The examples Vincent gives in the book, it's true, are all from post-bebop players like Wes, Joe Pass and Pat Martino, IIRC.

I have however encountered plenty of accented natural 4ths on major chords and as far as I know no one got hurt. In fact it may be the prettiest note in the scale if used right.

It can be very expressive, it's true.

Just to refer to the 'avoid note' debate, I agree, there are no avoid notes, you should be able to play and hear every note of the chromatic scale on whatever chord you like. And doing so doesn't therefore mean you're going to sound like Cecil Taylor either because it's how you use those notes, how they're rhythmically placed, articulated, phrased or whatever, their context, just as much as how their pitch relates to the underlying harmony.

(Great video BTW. The first one of yours I'm considering buying the accompanying PDF for.)

[Christian Miller]

The examples Vincent gives in the book, it's true, are all from post-bebop players like Wes, Joe Pass and Pat Martino, IIRC.

NB I amended my post above because I realise that there are quite a few examples of hexatonic-like things in jazz going back into the 20s. I'm sure I could think of some Parker examples.

Again, this is AFAIK a concept that was developed later on in the history of jazz, so make of that what you will..

[Christian Miller]

The hexatonic scale is just a particular sound or colour like the pentatonic scale. That's how I see it, not as facilitating improvisation but rather as a particular colour.

Yeah exactly.

I do think that harmony and improvisation are often talked about as if they are the same thing. Which obviously, they are not.

The language surrounding 'avoid notes' is quite funny - 'dangerous', 'intolerable dissonance' and so on. I mean if the conversations I've had with regular people over the years is anything to go by, modern jazz is mostly intolerable dissonance to non jazz listeners. They'd probably find it funny jazz educators and students get worried about this or that note being "too dissonant"..

The thing I come back to is when I was a teenager I needed to listen to jazz quite a bit before what I initially heard as 'out of tune' notes started to make sense to me. So I think it's much more like intuiting a grammar of a language through exposure to it, through both active and passive listening. This is way more powerful a way of learning than people give it credit for, and it's why everyone who knows their suff says that listening is so terribly important - central, in fact. It's the same for any style - 18th century European court music, post-tonal classical music, extreme metal, electronic dance music, hip hop, you name it.

None of this is 'natural' or 'inevitable'. It's all cultural conditioning.

Therefore, I think it's important that music of any kind is understood in those terms. Whatever observations we can make of a certain form of music should come from studying the music, not from some pseudoscientific rationalisation. Unfortunately, there's a lot of that latter stuff about.

OTOH I wonder if some of the 'how to jazz from a book' style theory just gets formulated to help out those that aren't intuitively developing a feel for the music for whatever reason. One big aspect of that has unfortunately got to be students not listening to jazz enough and expecting to learn it academically. I was in that category for a long time before I realised my mistake. There's no method that will bridge that gap for anyone.

[Mick-7]

I never heard the term "avoid note" when I was first learning jazz 50 years ago, any idea who came up with it and when?

The Berklee educator/piano teacher I quoted earlier did say it's an ear training trick for "beginning jazz pianists."

The hexatonic scale is just a particular sound or colour like the pentatonic scale.

I just bought the Randy Vincent book, Line Games (Sher Music pdf's are 40% off this month) because I've been working on improvising with triad combinations and wanted to see his take on the subject, a hexatonic scale is a combo of two triads. I talked about this in my Slonimsky thread - Slonimsky Curiosities

[Christian Miller]

I never heard the term "avoid note" when I was first learning jazz 50 years ago, any idea who came up with it and when?

I believe the term comes from the teaching of arranging horns when dealing with extended chord voicings, but this is something I heard from another JGO member - was it Reg? In that case this would have been Berklee back in the 70s.

[James W]

OTOH I wonder if some of the 'how to jazz from a book' style theory just gets formulated to help out those that aren't intuitively developing a feel for the music for whatever reason. One big aspect of that has unfortunately got to be students not listening to jazz enough and expecting to learn it academically. I was in that category for a long time before I realised my mistake. There's no method that will bridge that gap for anyone.

Perhaps such books take the listening side for granted. I do recall, though, that Levine's theory book stresses the importance of transcription and that everything you want to know is in your record collection (which is probably the wisest sentence in the book maybe?) And, one can't intuit everything. I mean, I'm pretty shamelessly adopting a concept that I don't think I would've got solely from transcribing into my playing (hexatonics). But then, people have been incorporating book learning into their jazz for most of jazz history - John Coltrane being the example who springs most immediately to mind.

[Christian Miller]

Perhaps such books take the listening side for granted. I do recall, though, that Levine's theory book stresses the importance of transcription and that everything you want to know is in your record collection (which is probably the wisest sentence in the book maybe?)

He also says:

"There is no one single, all inclusive “jazz theory.” In fact, that’s why the subject is called jazz theory rather than jazz truth. The only truth is in the music itself. “Theory” is the little intellectual dance we do around the music, attempting to come up with rules so we can understand why Charlie Parker and John Coltrane sounded the way they did. There are almost as many “jazz theories” as there are jazz musicians."

So the implication is that we should all be writing our own theory books, based on our listening, which also seems wise to me. When I disagree with some of the stuff in this book, I feel I'm doing so from that perspective.

And, one can't intuit everything.

Plainly, some can. Are they savants, or just people who went the right path early on? Hard to say.

The main problem for most of us is whether or not things that promise to help aren't robbing us of some other important learning.

I mean, I'm pretty shamelessly adopting a concept that I don't think I would've got solely from transcribing into my playing (hexatonics). But then, people have been incorporating book learning into their jazz for most of jazz history - John Coltrane being the example who springs most immediately to mind.

There's nothing wrong with that. I do it myself.

But to make use of that stuff you have to develop a feel for the music, to be able to intuit what feels and sounds 'right' and what doesn't and to breathe life into mere scales and so on...

Listening is the number one way to do that. One of the most valuable aspects of 'transcription' is how actively and carefully you have to listen to the music. I don't think that comes naturally to most people? It didnt' for me.