Monk, Barry Harris, the Harmonized Whole-Tone Scale in TRIADS

[Navdeep_Singh]

Thelonious Monk, Barry Harris, Harmonizing the Whole Tone Scale(s) in triads


Thinking about the Thelonious Monk’s love of the whole tone scale and Barry Harris’s family of four four dominants harmonized by triads associated with the whole tone scale and applied to each dominant of the family—recall that the traditional V7 in a key moves up a minor 3rd to create a family of four dominants (including the traditional V7 dominant and the so-called “Backdoor Dominant” (bVII7).
TLDR: The Triads associated with the whole tone scale applied to the family of four dominant 7th chords —-resultant harmonized in triads over a V7 and the family of four dominants yields the same formula-Major triad +augmented triad + Augmented triad


· G7: G - A+ - B+
· Bb7: Bb - C+ -D+
· Db7: Db - Eb+ - F+
· E7: E - F#+- G#+

I think these are great movements that yield interesting sounds with a lot of colors.

[Mick-7]

Thelonious Monk, Barry Harris, Harmonizing the Whole Tone Scale(s) in triads

Thinking about the Thelonious Monk’s love of the whole tone scale and Barry Harris’s family of four four dominants harmonized by triads associated with the whole tone scale and applied to each dominant of the family—recall that the traditional V7 in a key moves up a minor 3rd to create a family of four dominants (including the traditional V7 dominant and the so-called “Backdoor Dominant” (bVII7).
TLDR: The Triads associated with the whole tone scale applied to the family of four dominant 7th chords —-resultant harmonized in triads over a V7 and the family of four dominants yields the same formula-Major triad +augmented triad + Augmented triad

· G7: G - A+ - B+
· Bb7: Bb - C+ -D+
· Db7: Db - Eb+ - F+
· E7: E - F#+- G#+

I think these are great movements that yield interesting sounds with a lot of colors.

That's different, the family of 4 dominants are all in the same diminished scale.

For example, this dim. scale: Bb-C-Db-Eb-E-Gb-G-A
yields: C7b9/ Eb7b9/ Gb7b9/ A7b9.

Whereas your chord sets create 4 different scales (with an extra note added to each):

G7: G - A+ - B+ = G wt + the note D
Db7: Db - Eb+ - F+ = G wt + the note Ab.

Also, A+ & B+ and Eb+ & F+ are the same scale without your added G & D triads. The aforementioned also applies to your Bb7 & E7 chord sets.

Augmented triads a whole step apart make a whole tone scale, so a single whole tone scale will apply to six different augmented dominant 7th chords. For example, the G wt scale can be played over: G7+, A7+, B7+, Db7+, Eb7+ & F7+, and the wt scale 1/2 step higher will apply to the 6 other aug. dominant chords - Ab7+, Bb7+, etc.

However, you can form harmonic major and minor scales by combining augmented and diminished triads, see: Slonimsky Curiosities

[Strat-itis]

Yep, nicely done. You can use whole tone as a scale of chords too even though it isn't taught. I do that.

However, there are only 2 whole tone scales, you don't need to put them over the fam. You have the whole tone scale that will fit with the root of your 5 chord and tritone and then the one that will fit over your backdoor dominant chord.

[Mick-7]

Is the whole tone scale used in Barry Harris'es system?

[Christian Miller]

Is the whole tone scale used in Barry Harris'es system?

He taught the whole tone scale if that’s what you mean


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[djg]

He taught the whole tone scale if that’s what you mean

i remember he had the singers go "i can sing the whole-tone scale in thirds" over beautiful friendship. not sure if that part is on youtube.

[Mick-7]

He taught the whole tone scale if that’s what you mean.

But it doesn't have a place in his 8 note scale improvisation system, does it?

[Navdeep_Singh]

The Augmented triad is the chord associated with the whole tone scale. Roni Ben Hurr has used such a triad in his teachings, used in a V7 type of function. You can play augmented triads chromatically up and down the neck, using one shape, as a series of secondary dominants, nothing can be easier than that. When you want to resolve, you can resolve any subsequent note of the augmented triad. It works. Just voice lead it the resolution chord accordingly. (E.g, B+ where B is the middle note of the augmented triad, G-B-D#, can resolve to C triad, 2nd inversion (G-C-E).

When we re-order the major triads and augmented triads in sequence for the above family of four dominants
(G7: G - A+ - B+
· Bb7: Bb - C+ -D+
· Db7: Db - Eb+ - F+
· E7: E - F#+- G#+)

, we get this interesting overarching, “meta” series:

G, G#+, A+, Bb, B+, C+, Db, D+, Eb+, E7, F+, F#+

What does this tell you? The Major triads associated with the brothers and sisters are separated by augmented triads.

[pcjazz]

But it doesn't have a place in his 8 note scale improvisation system, does it?

The 8 note scales are primarily for harmony (comping), not improvisation, although there is some overlap, especially with the m6dim scale.

[Christian Miller]

But it doesn't have a place in his 8 note scale improvisation system, does it?

Barry didn't just teach eight note scales

[Christian Miller]

i remember he had the singers go "i can sing the whole-tone scale in thirds" over beautiful friendship. not sure if that part is on youtube.

Indeed... All together now over a C7#5...

[AllanAllen]

G7: G - A+ - B+

I don’t understand this.

G minor, A augmented minor, B augmented?

[pauln]

I don’t understand this.

G minor, A augmented minor, B augmented?

Dash - Delimiter

[Navdeep_Singh]

I don’t understand this.

G minor, A augmented minor, B augmented?

Disregard the dashes. Major triad followed by two augmented triads a whole step away.

[AllanAllen]

Thanks for clearing that up guys. Arpeggiating that is a pretty little run. Thanks for posting this. Something to add to my warm ups.

[Mick-7]

What does this tell you? The Major triads associated with the brothers and sisters are separated by augmented triads.

That's just complicating the obvious, they are actually "separated" by a single diminished 7th chord, i.e., adding a dim.7 chord makes it a chromatic scale.

For example, this dim. scale: Bb-(B)-C-Db-(D)-Eb-E-(F)-Gb-G-A = Bb/Db/E/G whole/half step dim scale + Bo7/Do7/Fo7/Ab7 (B/D/F/G#) = Chromatic scale.

There are scales that include augmented triads (e.g.., melodic and harmonic minor) but the dim. scale is not one of them.

[Navdeep_Singh]

Thanks for clearing that up guys. Arpeggiating that is a pretty little run. Thanks for posting this. Something to add to my warm ups.

Thanks. I’m gonna try this. First inversion triad (3-5-R) + “first inversion” augmented chord. To harmonize with triads chromatically. You co go up and down as you like, chromatically.

[AllanAllen]

Taking it for a spin through a G blues. Nice way to get some movement off of 2 shapes.

[Strat-itis]

The Augmented triad is the chord associated with the whole tone scale. Roni Ben Hurr has used such a triad in his teachings, used in a V7 type of function. You can play augmented triads chromatically up and down the neck, using one shape, as a series of secondary dominants, nothing can be easier than that. When you want to resolve, you can resolve any subsequent note of the augmented triad. It works. Just voice lead it the resolution chord accordingly. (E.g, B+ where B is the middle note of the augmented triad, G-B-D#, can resolve to C triad, 2nd inversion (G-C-E).

When we re-order the major triads and augmented triads in sequence for the above family of four dominants
(G7: G - A+ - B+
· Bb7: Bb - C+ -D+
· Db7: Db - Eb+ - F+
· E7: E - F#+- G#+)

, we get this interesting overarching, “meta” series:

G, G#+, A+, Bb, B+, C+, Db, D+, Eb+, E7, F+, F#+

What does this tell you? The Major triads associated with the brothers and sisters are separated by augmented triads.

I study with Thomas Echols and he teaches this. Dunno if Barry originally taught it, maybe the people who studied with him know.

I don't really care for going from one wt scale to the other because it sounds too chromatic and kind of waters down the spiky function of the 5 chord you're sticking it on. I prefer to just use 1 wt scale as a scale of chords for the 5. And then you can borrow notes for chromaticism, to make it more interesting, and to make it sound less whole toney.

[Navdeep_Singh]

I study with Thomas Echols and he teaches this. Dunno if Barry originally taught it, maybe the people who studied with him know.

I don't really care for going from one wt scale to the other because it sounds too chromatic and kind of waters down the spiky function of the 5 chord you're sticking it on. I prefer to just use 1 wt scale as a scale of chords for the 5. And then you can borrow notes for chromaticism, to make it more interesting, and to make it sound less whole toney.

That’s really cool to know. I used to watch all his YT videos regularly, he kind of disappeared from there, but I dug his elevator system, which to me is nothing more than “ do you know all your drop voicings/ Do you know all your intervals?” I liked his systematically he approached it, and his emphasis of polyphony and Barry’s harmonic system. I study BH for his harmonic stuff, not single note lines. I think the last I saw of Thomas’ YT stuff is him using families and moving them up and across, so to speak, to go over song forms and changes. I got from his YT videos the necessity of knowing ALL of Barrys families across string sets, to seamlessly go from a diminished to all four minor 6ths or all four dominant 7ths as necessary without thinking.

When you say he teaches this, what do you mean? Can you give me an example? Thanks He makes them all augmented, so as to stay within one whole tone sale?

[Christian Miller]

The elevator system is noice if I don’t quite like the terminology. It’s a nice way to practice your scales once you’ve got them in all the standard voicings and naturally leads to more interesting contrapuntal movement between the voices.

I think if he simply named the voicings after the outside intervals it would be more obvious but the massive issue with that is that all the intervals are a bit wonky in the eight note scales anyway. So the drop 2 won’t always be enclosed by the 10th for example. So not sure how it could be changed.

Works though.

[Navdeep_Singh]

The elevator system is noice if I don’t quite like the terminology. It’s a nice way to practice your scales once you’ve got them in all the standard voicings and naturally leads to more interesting contrapuntal movement between the voices.

I think if he simply named the voicings after the outside intervals it would be more obvious but the massive issue with that is that all the intervals are a bit wonky in the eight note scales anyway. So the drop 2 won’t always be enclosed by the 10th for example. So not sure how it could be changed.

Works though.

His ‘octave”chords, I already discovered by myself, just be trying to play George Shearing/s “Locked hands piano stuff for guitar. Basically you get R-3-6-EV8, because, yeah, this is a guitar, and we have to greatly simplify.

What confuses me is his so-called “shell voicings”. these have nothing to do with R-3-7 Freddie Green “shell voicings” we usually use.

[AllanAllen]

A shell voicing isn’t strictly R-3-7. That’s one kind of shell, but 5-3-9 is also a shell as well as R-5-7 ect, ect, ect.

It’s why

x2323x is Bm7b5 and also G9.

[Navdeep_Singh]

I always thought those 5-3-9 were called *rootless voicings* and presumably shell voicings had the R? Other terminology used for rootless voicings—- *cluster voicings* I could be wrong. I guess it’s down to nomenclature.

[Mick-7]

I always thought those 5-3-9 were called *rootless voicings* and presumably shell voicings had the R? Other terminology used for rootless voicings—- *cluster voicings* I could be wrong. I guess it’s down to nomenclature.

I've always thought of the term "shell voicing" as meaning the 3rd & 7th of the chord are included to define the chord type - major, minor, dominant, etc. They are the essential chord tones to which one may add a third note: root, 5th, or whatever.