Monk, Barry Harris, the Harmonized Whole-Tone Scale in TRIADS

[AllanAllen]

It doesn’t matter. This level of pedantictry won’t make you play any better.

[Christian Miller]

His ‘octave”chords, I already discovered by myself, just be trying to play George Shearing/s “Locked hands piano stuff for guitar. Basically you get R-3-6-EV8, because, yeah, this is a guitar, and we have to greatly simplify.

What confuses me is his so-called “shell voicings”. these have nothing to do with R-3-7 Freddie Green “shell voicings” we usually use.

Really? I don’t remember encountering any confusion. I thought he just meant a shell voiced sixth chord - eg 1 3 6. Maybe I misunderstood. In which case I think this interpretation works fine and reminds me of what Barry himself did in three voices.

I think once I got the basic idea of what he was talking about I just went to the playing. In root position, you are thinking root, 3rd, 5th, 6th, 8ve, 10th, 12th etc, so unison, third, triad, shell, “four way close”*, drop 2, drop 3 etc

Then you can think about patterns using different combinations and borrowed notes. I relate them to classical moti di bassi because I am a huge dweeb. Which doesn’t quite work but spits out some nice patterns .

*so the George Shearing thing as you say which have to appreciate by missing out a voice on guitar, usually the 5th


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[Christian Miller]

Something analogous would work fine with whole tone.

[Strat-itis]

When you say he teaches this, what do you mean? Can you give me an example? Thanks He makes them all augmented, so as to stay within one whole tone sale?

He uses 1 wt as the main chord and its inversions, and the other wt as the off / passing chord. It's too much for me haha. I just use 1 wt as a scale of chords and 'borrow' chromatics even though they're not part of the scale.

That’s really cool to know. I used to watch all his YT videos regularly, he kind of disappeared from there

Maybe he became big time and became an instructor on Open Studio and in his private channel?

I dug his elevator system, which to me is nothing more than 'do you know all your drop voicings / Do you know all your intervals?'

Yeah the elevator isn't too complicated to understand the overview, but it takes a bit of work to be able to get command of the entire thing: 1 note, 3rds, triads, closed / shell, octave, drop 2, drop 3, drop 2-4, double octave. Then being able to play up and down the elevator, or play along and borrow on each floor. It's systematic for guitarists because they need to structure their voicings like that. But it's more of a pain for pianists because we more just arrange notes in each hand. However, I'm making myself do it. I can play fluently with 3rds, triads, and closed but I have to get the rest of the elevator together.

I liked his systematically he approached it, and his emphasis of polyphony and Barry’s harmonic system. I study BH for his harmonic stuff, not single note lines. I think the last I saw of Thomas’ YT stuff is him using families and moving them up and across, so to speak, to go over song forms and changes. I got from his YT videos the necessity of knowing ALL of Barrys families across string sets, to seamlessly go from a diminished to all four minor 6ths or all four dominant 7ths as necessary without thinking.

It's such a good system. I've determined it's actually less work to just learn the system because it gives you so much with a simple structure, you just have to spend a bit working it out. It's much simpler than trying to traditionally work chord alterations and voicings piece meal.

[Navdeep_Singh]

Really? I don’t remember encountering any confusion. I thought he just meant a shell voiced sixth chord - eg 1 3 6. Maybe I misunderstood. In which case I think this interpretation works fine and reminds me of what Barry himself did in three voices.

I think once I got the basic idea of what he was talking about I just went to the playing. In root position, you are thinking root, 3rd, 5th, 6th, 8ve, 10th, 12th etc, so unison, third, triad, shell, “four way close”*, drop 2, drop 3 etc

Then you can think about patterns using different combinations and borrowed notes. I relate them to classical moti di bassi because I am a huge dweeb. Which doesn’t quite work but spits out some nice patterns .

*so the George Shearing thing as you say which have to appreciate by missing out a voice on guitar, usually the 5th


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My memory may be faulty, but I recall from his yT that what he meant by shell chords was a drop 2 that excluded one of the voices (tenor? Alto?)

The open voicing I rely get down pat was drop 2 and 4. That’s a great voicing. Playing an 8 string, I have an extra string set for drop 2 (4 string sets); drop 3 (3 string sets) drop 2 and 4 (3 string sets). What really impressed me about his yT videos was his incessant demand to get all this down to muscle memory so that muscle memory becomes “linguistic”.

I brought his PDFs, the only thing I couldn’t’ get was his fascination to begin by teaching the CAGED system. As with anything else, I take what I like from the stuff and incorporate it into my practice.

[pcjazz]

My memory may be faulty, but I recall from his yT that what he meant by shell chords was a drop 2 that excluded one of the voices (tenor? Alto?).

Yes, that’s what Alan (adapting Barry to guitar) called a “short”. Much of Echols can be found in Alan’s book including his “elevator” which Alan briefly shows as a way of harmonizing contrary motion through the Maj6dim scale. I don’t know why Echols thought it useful to rename so many things from Barry’s teaching. I asked him about it once when he was starting out but got a somewhat dismissive response.

[Navdeep_Singh]

R.I.P. Alan. He was a decent cat. I thought about him the other week. Life is shorter than we think, and often, we don’t’ even do that, ie, think.

[Christian Miller]

My memory may be faulty, but I recall from his yT that what he meant by shell chords was a drop 2 that excluded one of the voices (tenor? Alto?)

Well if it’s the tenor then that’s another type of shell voicing - 1 6 10. For these purposes that would have the same outside intervals as the drop 2s. Barry did have exercises and patterns using this type of voicing, such as his famous going up and down the scale borrowing the middle voice thingy (is there a shorter name for that haha?)

The open voicing I rely get down pat was drop 2 and 4. That’s a great voicing. Playing an 8 string, I have an extra string set for drop 2 (4 string sets); drop 3 (3 string sets) drop 2 and 4 (3 string sets). What really impressed me about his yT videos was his incessant demand to get all this down to muscle memory so that muscle memory becomes “linguistic”.

That’s absolutely essential for any new material. One big thing most students get frustrated by is new material not showing up in their playing. We tend to underestimate just how much work it takes to internalise anything. Little and often (interleaved practice) seems to work best for me.

There’s a lot of drill involved in becoming an improviser.

I brought his PDFs, the only thing I couldn’t’ get was his fascination to begin by teaching the CAGED system. As with anything else, I take what I like from the stuff and incorporate it into my practice.

The pdf’s are pretty expensive. I’ve got enough to work on just watching one video anyway. Apparently simple concepts take a long time to develop thoroughly.

The “CAGED system” is a great way to link chords and scales together which is good for something like straightahead jazz or bebop where changes move quickly. I think a unique issue for guitar players is there’s a disconnect between chords and scales which piano doesn’t have.

Given most of our most influential teachers are pianists, it is something that needs to be addressed one way or another. One reason why I tend not to teach Barry Harris stuff to jazz beginners.

It took me a long time and quite a bit of work to get to the point where I could keep up in class and I was already a working player!.

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[pcjazz]

Is there a Barry Harris scale that is a combination of the melodic and harmonic minor scales?

The minor six diminished scale, built by interleaving the notes of a minor 6 chord and a diminished 7 chord. For example, Cm6dim = C D Eb F G Ab A B
Used to improvise over tonic minor and to comp over F7 and B7alt.

[Navdeep_Singh]

Well if it’s the tenor then that’s another type of shell voicing - 1 6 10. For these purposes that would have the same outside intervals as the drop 2s. Barry did have exercises and patterns using this type of voicing, such as his famous going up and down the scale borrowing the middle voice thingy (is there a shorter name for that haha?)



That’s absolutely essential for any new material. One big thing most students get frustrated by is new material not showing up in their playing. We tend to underestimate just how much work it takes to internalise anything. Little and often (interleaved practice) seems to work best for me.

There’s a lot of drill involved in becoming an improviser.



The pdf’s are pretty expensive. I’ve got enough to work on just watching one video anyway. Apparently simple concepts take a long time to develop thoroughly.

The “CAGED system” is a great way to link chords and scales together which is good for something like straightahead jazz or bebop where changes move quickly. I think a unique issue for guitar players is there’s a disconnect between chords and scales which piano doesn’t have.

Given most of our most influential teachers are pianists, it is something that needs to be addressed one way or another. One reason why I tend not to teach Barry Harris stuff to jazz beginners.

It took me a long time and quite a bit of work to get to the point where I could keep up in class and I was already a working player!.

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Yes indeed! It takes a long time and work to to all the drills to become an improviser. Well said. One thing I now find, after putting the time in, is how nice the “Octave chords” (or as I call, modified George Shearing voicings-Shearing doubled the top note in the bass with his left hand while playing some sort of inversion with the right hand; we can only play R-3-6-Ev8) mix and match very nicely with “Wes-style” octaves. Try it. Mix and match, blend to taste.

[AllanAllen]

I like to octave the 3rd on a m7. R m3 7 m3.

I never thought to develop a system for other chords. That’s great.

[Christian Miller]

Octave as a verb is a new one for me, but I like it


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[AllanAllen]

I never claimed to be good at word.

[Christian Miller]

I never claimed to be good at word.

Surely you mean that you don’t word real good? ;-)


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[Mick-7]

Octave as a verb is a new one for me, but I like it.

I never claimed to be good at word.

In the beginning was the Octave, and the Octave was with God, and the Octave was God.

[Mick-7]

The minor six diminished scale, built by interleaving the notes of a minor 6 chord and a diminished 7 chord. For example, Cm6dim = C D Eb F G Ab A B. Used to improvise over tonic minor and to comp over F7 and B7alt.

o.k., thanks, it has other applications too, e.g., Ebmaj7b5/#5. Did he use the harmonic minor and harmonic major scales too?

[Christian Miller]

In the beginning was the Octave, and the Octave was with God, and the Octave was God.

So, you have been watching Barry’s masterclasses!


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[pcjazz]

o.k., thanks, it has other applications too, e.g., Ebmaj7b5/#5. Did he use the harmonic minor and harmonic major scales too?

Harmonic minor was mentioned in improv classes, don’t recall any mention of harmonic major.

[Christian Miller]

Harmonic major doesn’t show up melodically much in western music. It is as the name suggests more of a harmonic thing and all of those harmonies are present in the maj6-dim so it’s a bit redundant really if you are into that scale.


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[pamosmusic]

Harmonic major doesn’t show up melodically much in western music. It is as the name suggests more of a harmonic thing and all of those harmonies are present in the maj6-dim so it’s a bit redundant really if you are into that scale.


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Jonathan Kreisberg seems to have some use for it now and again.

[Mick-7]

Harmonic major doesn’t show up melodically much in western music. It is as the name suggests more of a harmonic thing and all of those harmonies are present in the maj6-dim so it’s a bit redundant really if you are into that scale.

I don't know Barry Harris'es scales, what is the maj6-dim scale?

Never mind, I looked it up, a major scale with added b6th. I may call that something else.....

[James W]

Jonathan Kreisberg seems to have some use for it now and again.

I hear it in Ant Law's music too. (At least I think so)

[GuyBoden]

I don't know Barry Harris'es scales, what is the maj6-dim scale?

Never mind, I looked it up, a major scale with added b6th. I may call that something else.....

Major Bebop Scale.



Edit: It's a very well known scale. Used as part of the Barry Harris "Major Scales with Added Half Steps" Rules, but never called by the name " Bebop Major Scale". (See the book: Talk Jazz - Roni Ben Hur)

Or: Extra Notes – The Barry Harris Companion

[Christian Miller]

I don't know Barry Harris'es scales, what is the maj6-dim scale?

Never mind, I looked it up, a major scale with added b6th. I may call that something else.....

It's what you get when you add a major 6th chord to a diminished 7th chord a half step down

The harmonic major is what you get when you add a major triad to a diminished 7th chord a half step down

[Mick-7]

It's what you get when you add a major 6th chord to a diminished 7th chord a half step down

The harmonic major is what you get when you add a major triad to a diminished 7th chord a half step down

Yes, thank you, seems I've been reinventing the wheel again, I'm good at that....



However I wanted only aug & dim triads so I combined it with the harmonic minor scale.