Atonal (ahem)

[Mark Kleinhaut]

[bako]

Not sure if I believe in atonality, just extremely short lived key centers. Human perception needs to catch up and keep up.
Nice playing, been enjoying the expanding ensemble variations.

[Mark Kleinhaut]

Not sure if I believe in atonality, just extremely short lived key centers. Human perception needs to catch up and keep up.
Nice playing, been enjoying the expanding ensemble variations.

Momentarily tonal I guess that could apply to each and every single note, but as you’ve observed- human perception is based on a certain speed of cognition. Plus, our brains are wired to seek and recognize the larger patterns in things. I believe there is a certain comfort we find in the feel of gravity and the sense of knowing which way is up. We like a little bit of roller coaster but tip us too much and we all just puke. Humans are funny that way

[joe2758]

Not sure if I believe in atonality, just extremely short lived key centers. Human perception needs to catch up and keep up.
Nice playing, been enjoying the expanding ensemble variations.

This comment interested me so much that yesterday I wrote a 12-tone atonal melody. I wanted to see if I could make "tonal" by adding harmony. Kinda worked, I dunno. Sounds weird, but I think you can hear a tonal center.

Nice ensemble, Mark

[cmajor9]

Its certainly possible to write a 12-tone melody that “suggests” tonality, despite the fact that the 12-tone compositional technique is intended to defeat any constant sense of tonal center. I wrote a 12-tone piece for jazz band in college using a Webern-ish tone row/melody that suggested a I7#9 - ii7 - V7b9 progression.

[joe2758]

the melody didn't suggest tonality at all, it was all 7ths, tritones, 2nds and a just a couple 3rds. In the key of C the melody started Bb, C, F# if I remember. I made a thread with a video

[Mark Kleinhaut]

I should mention, though many of you who know me here will already have known this, that this “piece” was completely improvised by the ensemble. Though I’m clearly leading this one, nothing was worked out or even discussed.

The other thing I’d add, the atonalism here is intentionally amplified by the arrhythmia of the performance. In fact, there’s probably more tonal centeredness than rhythmic center. Anyway, this playing approach makes me happy

[Christian Miller]

IIRC Schoenberg never used the term at all, preferring 'free tonal' for works such as Five Orchestral Pieces and Pierrot Lunaire that did not (consciously) used 12-tone organisation.

'atonal' suggests a restriction. Schoenberg's conception of his own (early at least) music suggests freedom and increased expressive means over conventional tonality - not a negation of it. Which seems more compatible with improvisation too. Certainly it was that era of Schoenberg's music that was important to Derek Bailey and Evan Parker early on.

[Mark Kleinhaut]

IIRC Schoenberg never used the term at all, preferring 'free tonal' for works such as Five Orchestral Pieces and Pierrot Lunaire that did not (consciously) used 12-tone organisation.

'atonal' suggests a restriction. Schoenberg's conception of his own (early at least) music suggests freedom and increased expressive means over conventional tonality - not a negation of it. Which seems more compatible with improvisation too. Certainly it was that era of Schoenberg's music that was important to Derek Bailey and Evan Parker early on.

I prefer “Free Tonal”! I’ve often referred to my work as free-meter rather than rubato so this vibes with me extremely well. Thank you, I will never use “atonal” again except for 12 tone rows or structured stuff like that (which I’m no longer interested in anyway). Thanks again!!

[James W]

'atonal' suggests a restriction.

Not sure about this. Does 'tonal' suggest a restriction?

[Peter C]

That was fun, and great camera work! Thanks

[Mark Kleinhaut]

That was fun, and great camera work! Thanks

Thanks for acknowledging the camera work. The video production is a whole other medium that I’m just enjoying the hell out of. Fortunately I play guitar so I have friends to help give endless raw material to play with.

[Bob_Ross]

'atonal' suggests a restriction.

Not sure about this. Does 'tonal' suggest a restriction?

I've heard many 20th Century composers assert that "atonal" is simply the wrong word to describe what they were doing.
Semantically, "atonal" means that it is actively and intentionally fighting against tonality; that the work is anti-tonality
...and while in many cases that is what these composers were doing culturally, what they were doing musically was more about simply avoiding tonality. So "non-tonal" would be a more accurate description.

"Tonal" doesn't so much suggest a restriction as it does imply a restriction. But again, we're talking semantics.

[Christian Miller]

Not sure about this. Does 'tonal' suggest a restriction?

Yes it suggests you are deliberately avoiding a tonal centre, which AFAIK isn’t something Schoenberg was trying to do in his ‘free tonal’ music. Expressionism itself was the liberation of art from societal constraints into dark and extreme realms. The “emancipation of the dissonance” suggests this drive.

The rule making for Schoenberg came later in response to the formlessness of this music and its reliance on text. I mean thats all bog standard music history obviously?

It may be more the case with Webern whose music had more self imposed rules.

Otoh I don’t think Mozart or Chopin were conceptualising their music as ‘tonal’ - that’s more a characterisation of later theorists.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[James W]

Yes it suggests you are deliberately avoiding a tonal centre, which AFAIK isn’t something Schoenberg was trying to do in his ‘free tonal’ music. Expressionism itself was the liberation of art from societal constraints into dark and extreme realms. The “emancipation of the dissonance” suggests this drive.

The rule making for Schoenberg came later in response to the formlessness of this music and its reliance on text. I mean thats all bog standard music history obviously?

It may be more the case with Webern whose music had more self imposed rules.

Otoh I don’t think Mozart or Chopin were conceptualising their music as ‘tonal’ - that’s more a characterisation of later theorists.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No, I asked whether 'tonal' was restrictive. My point being that neither approach is more restrictive than the other. Schoenberg may not have been trying to avoid tonal centres in those works but at best they are far more ambiguous than more tonal music - I half remember that there are a few different analyses of the three piano pieces op. 11 each one thinking of it as being in a different key.

Anyway, I think 'atonal' is an alright term. I mean there's a lot of music that does avoid tonal areas (but I don't think the existence of tonal areas is a prerequisite to comprehensibility). 'Post-tonal' might be better in certain respects and it is broader. Personally, the composition I've been working on combines approaches, dealing with unordered collections of notes like 'synthetic' scales, as well as more serial orientated techniques, and then more rhythmic or textural ideas, though I take liberties when it comes to actually writing the pitches. Anyway, these sorts of ideas can yield music of ostensibly very different sound worlds.

And @ Bob Ross I don't think 'non-tonal' is very helpful because it could mean modal...

[Bob_Ross]

And @ Bob Ross I don't think 'non-tonal' is very helpful because it could mean modal...

But anyone who believes "modal" music is "non-tonal" is using an extremely pedantic definition of "tonal"

[Christian Miller]

It’s not pedantic? It’s a specific terminology.

Tonaltiy in music theory usually refers to common practice music (eg Bach Mozart etc) with respect to its treatment of key. So we establish keys and modulations with the V I’s and so on one finds in Mozart etc.

Tonality in the wider sense as found in rock music for instance establishes a tonal centre through repetition and there may be no establishing unambiguous cadence. Truly modal music (such as Hindustani or Classical Arabic) has a central melodic pitch and often also has a drone, and so on.

Post tonal contemporary music might have a tonal centre as well but this is established in the same way. Boulez Notation IV uses a sort of ground bass for example which is part of twelve tone row but the repetition gives the sense of a central pitch.

In any case I don’t think i actually view common practice music that way any more… I think it may be a product of later thinking including Schoenberg’s. C18 musicians seem to have thought about basic stuff such as the key in a very different way to the way things are taught today.

Still formulating my thoughts about that to be honest.

[Bob_Ross]

It’s not pedantic? It’s a specific terminology.

Tonaltiy in music theory usually refers to common practice music (eg Bach Mozart etc) with respect to its treatment of key. So while modal music has a tonal centre - it doesn’t establish that sense of tonality using the V I’s and so on one finds in Mozart etc.

Tonality in the wider sense as found in rock music for instance establishes a tonal centre through repetition and there may be no establishing unambiguous cadence. Truly modal music (such as Hindustani or Classical Arabic) has a drone, and so on.

Right, I don't disagree with anything you wrote there...I just believe that any definition of "tonal music" that excludes music that has a tonal center is extremely pedantic. That doesn't mean I think it's incorrect.

But I think its practical value outside of the conservatory is rather suspect.

(And I say that as a conservatory graduate)

[Christian Miller]

Right, I don't disagree with anything you wrote there...I just believe that any definition of "tonal music" that excludes music that has a tonal center is extremely pedantic. That doesn't mean I think it's incorrect.

But I think it's practical value outside of the conservatory is rather suspect.

(And I say that as a conservatory graduate)

I’m not a fan of the term.

But I don’t think you can acquiesce to popular usage because there’s no consistency there. Usually people say music sounds atonal if it sounds odd to them. People sometimes say bebop sounds atonal for example.

People are usually responding to things like unfamiliar use of vertical intervals, irregularity of phrases and angularity of the melody rather than whether or not you can sing a central note through the thing.

Besides which even popular music can be ambiguous about tonal centre (Hey Joe)

I’d also argue that maybe if Boulez has a central pitch in many of his pieces (and it seems to me he does), perhaps true atonality is kind of rare and not really an artistic goal? Again as I understand it Webern articulated the idea of atonality or lack of a central key in his own music and may encapsulate it best, but he’s kind of his own unique thing.

OTOH as you say it seems a bit mad to say something like So What is atonal Just because it doesn’t conform to the harmonic hierarchies we find in Haydn or whatever.

It’s a bit of a hangover from the musical world of early twentieth century Europe and its cultural assumptions. A much less musically diverse world where you’d had centuries of V-Is, every parlour song and society march had them too, and the alternative was Strauss’s Electra and so on located within ‘high culture’ European progressivism.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Reg]

I never mind the term... generally I take it as don't expect standard Harmonic Functional Guidelines of harmonic movement and form.

Sure a lot better than Headache music...LOL. I like the use of rhythmic concepts for organizational use of space....

You guys are cool.
Thanks

[Mark Kleinhaut]

I’m not a fan of the term.

But I don’t think you can acquiesce to popular usage because there’s no consistency there. Usually people say music sounds atonal if it sounds odd to them. People sometimes say bebop sounds atonal for example.

People are usually responding to things like unfamiliar use of vertical intervals, irregularity of phrases and angularity of the melody rather than whether or not you can sing a central note through the thing.

Besides which even popular music can be ambiguous about tonal centre (Hey Joe)

I’d also argue that maybe if Boulez has a central pitch in many of his pieces (and it seems to me he does), perhaps true atonality is kind of rare and not really an artistic goal? Again as I understand it Webern articulated the idea of atonality or lack of a central key in his own music and may encapsulate it best, but he’s kind of his own unique thing.

OTOH as you say it seems a bit mad to say something like So What is atonal Just because it doesn’t conform to the harmonic hierarchies we find in Haydn or whatever.

It’s a bit of a hangover from the musical world of early twentieth century Europe and its cultural assumptions. A much less musically diverse world where you’d had centuries of V-Is, every parlour song and society march had them too, and the alternative was Strauss’s Electra and so on located within ‘high culture’ European progressivism.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

So, does this performance sound atonal to you? I thought it did, but maybe it’s because of the dissonance and rhythmic disruptions and I’m mixing my descriptors up. I don’t actually try to label things this way until I go posting here or there and find the obligation to describe it somehow. Thanks!

[Christian Miller]

So, does this performance sound atonal to you? I thought it did, but maybe it’s because of the dissonance and rhythmic disruptions and I’m mixing my descriptors up. I don’t actually try to label things this way until I go posting here or there and find the obligation to describe it somehow. Thanks!

No it doesn’t at all, in the sense of sounding like the music of Webern or whatever. There’s a strong sense of tonal centre.

Actually it sounds quite rootsy to my ears, the whole thing is kind of built around repeating bluesy chromatic figure. The flute is playing some figures that are clearly built from consonant intervals.

Anyway I like it. There are elements of Eric Dolphy and Jimmy Guiffre.

[Mark Kleinhaut]

No it doesn’t at all, in the sense of sounding like the music of Webern or whatever. There’s a strong sense of tonal centre.

Actually it sounds quite rootsy to my ears, the whole thing is kind of built around repeating bluesy chromatic figure. The flute is playing some figures that are clearly built from consonant intervals.

Anyway I like it. There are elements of Eric Dolphy and Jimmy Guiffre.

Thanks for the comments. You’re right of course.