Coltrane Changes Method

[ragman1]

Well, here's something you can have a good laugh at. Or, of course, utilise efficiently.

I wanted to be able to play through Coltrane changes without breaking a sweat because, you know, it's undignified and very few players can do it the way you're supposed to, i.e. like Coltrane.

The problem with Coltrane changes is that you can't just play the subs over the ordinary 2-5-1. You have to change the actual chords in the backing.

Coltrane is fairly scalar and he took a long time to master it himself. Why, I'm not sure because it tends to sound like a party piece. But I mustn't be rude about it.

Anyway, I've done it in my own way which I find sounds okay and isn't beyond most players unless they want to do it at the speed of light. Which I do not. obviously.

So let's use the usual 2-5-1 in C:

Dm7 - G7 - CM7 - %

That becomes:

Dm7/Eb7 - AbM7/B7 - EM7/G7 - CM7

This is the most familiar variation using intervals of the major 3rd which outlines the C augmented chord: C E Ab.

There are others. There's the minor 3rd variation which is actually rather pleasant and the tritone one which is okay too. But this is the major 3rd one. In at the deep end.

As you know, I find dominants a little limiting to solo round and I prefer to minorize them. So, chord-wise, it comes out like this:

Dm7/Bbm - AbM7/F#m - EM7/Dm - CM7

Now, personally, I find zipping around so many strange changes a bit much so I apply the old trick of only playing the second chord in the bar. It's a lot easier and sounds good enough for this kind of music. So:

Bbm - F#m - Dm - CM7

It works. But, as we know, there are three ways to minorize a dominant. In C that's Dm, Fm and Abm over G7.

So now we have a whole lot of choices over those three keys:

Bbm - F#m - Dm - CM7
Dbm - Am - Fm - CM7
Em - Cm - Abm - CM7

And also, which is nice, you can mix them up in any way you choose. For example:

Bbm - Am - Abm - CM7
Em - F#m - Fm - CM7
Dbm - Cm - Dm - CM7

And so on. Some are prettier than others but they all work. And you'll notice the several opportunities for chromatic moves. And all these chords are played as melodic minors. That's important.

Here's the (inevitable) sound clip of a couple of these sounds. See what you think. Don't forget the backing changes are:

Dm7/Eb7 - AbM7/B7 - EM7/G7 - CM7

It's all take one, by the way, just drifts off the fingers. Quite fun, really.

[Mick-7]

The problem with Coltrane changes is that you can't just play the subs over the ordinary 2-5-1. You have to change the actual chords in the backing.

Coltrane is fairly scalar and he took a long time to master it himself. Why, I'm not sure because it tends to sound like a party piece. But I mustn't be rude about it.

Anyway, I've done it in my own way which I find sounds okay and isn't beyond most players unless they want to do it at the speed of light. Which I do not. obviously.

So let's use the usual 2-5-1 in C: Dm7 - G7 - CM7 - %

That becomes: Dm7/Eb7 - AbM7/B7 - EM7/G7 - CM7

This is the most familiar variation using intervals of the major 3rd which outlines the C augmented chord: C E Ab.

There are others. There's the minor 3rd variation which is actually rather pleasant and the tritone one which is okay too. But this is the major 3rd one. In at the deep end.

As you know, I find dominants a little limiting to solo round and I prefer to minorize them. So, chord-wise, it comes out like this:

Dm7/Bbm - AbM7/F#m - EM7/Dm - CM7

I don't see how thinking of the dominant chords as their relative IIm7 chords helps, you still have the same shifting tonal centers (down in major 3rds) - Dm7 / Eb7 - AbM7/ B7 - EM7/ G7 - CM7.

[ragman1]

Subbing over the dominants doesn't alter the tonal centers.

[AllanAllen]

So let's use the usual 2-5-1 in C:

Dm7 - G7 - CM7 - %

That becomes:

Dm7/Eb7 - AbM7/B7 - EM7/G7 - CM7

I don’t get it. I know Coltrane changes are something about thirds. But I don’t see the map here.

Dm would lead to F
Eb would lead to G
Ab would lead to C

I just don’t think I understand fundamentally what these changes are.

[grahambop]

It’s as Mick said above, in the key of C the tonal centres shift down in major thirds, i.e. C to Ab to E to C.

(Each tonal centre being preceded by its dominant, so Eb7 to Ab, etc.)

[Mick-7]

From Mr. Roberts.....

[supersoul]

It’s as Mick said above, in the key of C the tonal centres shift down in major thirds, i.e. C to Ab to E to C.

(Each tonal centre being preceded by its dominant, so Eb7 to Ab, etc.)

You can keep going around the circle, Up a minor third, down a fifth, up a minor third, down a fifth, up a minor third, down a fifth. Over and over again, as an exercise.

||: C Eb7 Ab B7 E G7 :||

I've tried it as a substitution for the first two bars of All of Me. Instead of C major for two measures, play | C Eb7 | Ab B7 | and then land on the E7.

[AllanAllen]

It’s as Mick said above, in the key of C the tonal centres shift down in major thirds, i.e. C to Ab to E to C.

(Each tonal centre being preceded by its dominant, so Eb7 to Ab, etc.)

I don’t get it, the major 3rd of C is not Ab.

[starjasmine]

I don’t get it, the major 3rd of C is not Ab.

Starting on the note C and going down a major third gives you the note Ab.

[grahambop]

I don’t get it, the major 3rd of C is not Ab.

True, but that’s not what is being stated. The Coltrane cycle involves descending tonal centres (e.g. C to Ab).

The distance going downwards from C to Ab is an interval of a major third.

Another way of saying it is that Ab is a major third below C.

I believe it’s all related to the fact that Trane was interested in the symmetry of breaking the octave into 3 equal divisions. If you do this, the interval between each of the divisions is a major third.

[AllanAllen]

Ohhhh, descending.

[ragman1]

Wot Graham said.

Maj 3rd up from C is E
Maj 3rd up from E is Ab
Maj 3rd up from Ab is C

The neat thing is it works going down as well:

Maj 3rd down from C is Ab
Maj 3rd down from Ab is E
Maj 3rd down from E is C

Coltrane did it descending (presumably so it goes from high back to tonic C):

Ab - E - C - %

Then put in the V's of Ab and E:

Dm7/Eb7 - AbM7/B7 - EM7/G7 - CM7

Which creates three tonal centres as opposed to one.

-----------------

That's what he did. Quite why he did it I've no idea. Just one more thing to complicate life with, I suppose :-)

[ragman1]

For more information this is good:

https://www.thejazzpianosite.com/jaz...trane-changes/

[AllanAllen]

I think it sounds cool on But Not For Me, but it could be Tyner’s rhythm more than the chords he plays. It interests me to try and use it on similar GASB changes. For you know, the 4th or 5th chorus, or the out head. That’s where I try new stuff at the end of the tune.

[Mick-7]

20 years before Giant Steps there was.....

Have You Met Miss Jones - Bridge:

[AllanAllen]

20 years before Giant Steps there was.....

Have You Met Miss Jones - Bridge:

Oh yeah, I should learn that first. Good call.

[ragman1]

Oh, in that case I've played them more than I realised!

[AllanAllen]

So, my plan now, just to wrap this up for me, is to learn Miss Jones, Giant Steps, and Tyner's changes to But Not For Me then play around with them for a while before trying to inject Coltrane changes into my arrangements of standards.

[Christian Miller]

So, my plan now, just to wrap this up for me, is to learn Miss Jones, Giant Steps, and Tyner's changes to But Not For Me then play around with them for a while before trying to inject Coltrane changes into my arrangements of standards.

Have you Met Miss Jones isn’t the Coltrane pattern btw, it’s just a series of II V Is in major thirds. Not too bad if you know your II V s and good practice if you do.

The Coltrane cycle as I understand it is this (in C)

C Eb7 Ab B7 E G7 C

Which I conceptualise as this (whole tone bass). Which is harder but you can practice it in isolation

C Bb-6 Ab F#-6 E D-6 C

Two vids I have done on subject

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[wolflen]

I don’t get it. I know Coltrane changes are something about thirds. But I don’t see the map here.

Dm would lead to F
Eb would lead to G
Ab would lead to C

I just don’t think I understand fundamentally what these changes are.

AA The study of the augmented scale helped me alot in this kind of thing. Symmetric harmony!

A Hexatonic-six note scale which is a bit amazing..
three major triads
three minor trads
and six augmented triads-each note is the root

not bad for six notes!!

C Eb E G Ab B

There are only FOUR augmented scales..experiment..have fun and be amazed!

[AllanAllen]

I appreciate all the input guys. If past experience has taught me anything, if I get as twisted up as I feel right now, I’m not ready for the concept. Or at least not in the way I’m trying to understand it.

I’m going to watch the videos and learn the handful of tunes, but probably keep my main focus on Parker heads.

[pamosmusic]

Have you Met Miss Jones isn’t the Coltrane pattern btw, it’s just a series of II V Is in major thirds. Not too bad if you know your II V s and good practice if you do.

Yeah but if you chunk those ii-Vs it’s half time trane changes …

Bb — Db7 — Gb — A7 — D

instead of

Bb Db7 - Gb A7 - D

so I guess a decent intro. Though I’ve found — in my incredible ability to continue butchering trane changes — that my ii-V stuff just doesn’t translate onto that progression. I think you can’t treat them like cadences, so much as like steps in a big weird Coltrane cadence. So maybe better to just treat it like a different thing.

The Coltrane cycle as I understand it is this (in C)

C Eb7 Ab B7 E G7 C

Which I conceptualise as this (whole tone bass). Which is harder but you can practice it in isolation

C Bb-6 Ab F#-6 E D-6 C

crap I love this and will need to practice it now

[Christian Miller]

Yeah but if you chunk those ii-Vs it’s half time trane changes …

Bb — Db7 — Gb — A7 — D

instead of

Bb Db7 - Gb A7 - D

so I guess a decent intro. Though I’ve found — in my incredible ability to continue butchering trane changes — that my ii-V stuff just doesn’t translate onto that progression. I think you can’t treat them like cadences, so much as like steps in a big weird Coltrane cadence. So maybe better to just treat it like a different thing.



crap I love this and will need to practice it now

My experience has been that’s it’s a different problem. Functionally the same, but there’s something about having each new key centre in the middle of the bar that makes it feel totally different.


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[Mick-7]

The Coltrane cycle as I understand it is this (in C)

C Eb7 Ab B7 E G7 C

Which I conceptualise as this (whole tone bass). Which is harder but you can practice it in isolation

C Bb-6 Ab F#-6 E D-6 C

Simplest scale conception is half-steps up/down:

C - Eb7 | Ab - B7 | E - G7 | C

= Bm7(b5) - Bbm7 | Bbm7 - B7 (or Bm7)| B7 - Bm7b5 | Bm7(b5) - with natural 5th = C Lydian.

Same scales: C (or G) > Ab > E > C (or G)

[pamosmusic]

Simplest scale conception is half-steps up/down:

C - Eb7 | Ab - B7 | E - G7 | C

= Bm7(b5) - Bbm7 | Bbm7 - B7 (or Bm7)| B7 - Bm7b5 | Bm7(b5) - with natural 5th = C Lydian.

Same scales: C (or G) > Ab > E > C (or G)

Isn't this just an extremely roundabout way of saying to play the key centers?