Melody, melody, and more melody.

[brent.h]

I thought my ears were kinda ok because I sing every single note I play while practising and even on the bandstand.

But these advanced players at my jam session have ears on another level: when I end my solo with a particular note or phrase, the next soloist just picks up the exact note/phrase and runs with it for the next chorus.

And their solos develop into super melodic, fresh stuff without needing to fall back on bop lines.

I'm guessing that there are 2 things that allow them to do this so instantaneously: the ability to hear intervals very precisely and a lifetime of playing all kinds of melodies and tunes.

I'm at a point in my playing where I want to be able to hear my way through a song effortlessly like these guys.

I don't want to fall back on arpeggios, bebop triplet arpeggios, Barry Harris fragments, rules, scales, chromatics, or 5432 phrases or any of my automatic muscle memory lines that outline the changes. I can sing & play these things, but they don't feel genuinely improvised. They're prepared and don't come from a place of "Oooh I just heard someone play this and Imma react/use that".

To get there, I'm mining the melodies of tunes really really hard. This has been my process:

1) Take any melody - songbook tunes, current pop music, nursery rhymes - and sing the melody super slowly. Identify the interval between each note. This has been quite painful and difficult.

2) Play the melody anywhere on the guitar. Start with any finger. Play the melody/interval without looking at the fretboard. Forces me to find appropriate fingerings for the intervals. (I just try to imagine how a blind jazz musician might do this.) This has been crazy difficult.

3) Learn ultra small fragments of melodies of standards (or fragments of the most recognisable part of the tune). For example, the first 3 notes of Autumn Leaves (G, A, Bb) is basically a chord-tone to passing-tone to chord-tone thing. Then adjust it for major/dominant chords, and play an entire chorus of another tune with this idea. I try my best to feel this line as an emotive device instead of a 'lick'.

What do you think of this system of developing the ear and learning melodic improvisation? Good or needlessly difficult? Can it be improved or streamlined?

Also, has anyone tried this approach to free him/herself from the shackles of prepared licks and changes-running?

[GuyBoden]

My main problem was learning an Aural artform with visual tools.

No visuals, Listen & Learn.

[GuyBoden]

This has been my process:

1) Take any melody - songbook tunes, current pop music, nursery rhymes - and sing the melody super slowly. Identify the interval between each note. This has been quite painful and difficult.

2) Play the melody anywhere on the guitar. Start with any finger. Play the melody/interval without looking at the fretboard. Forces me to find appropriate fingerings for the intervals. (I just try to imagine how a blind jazz musician might do this.) This has been crazy difficult.

3) Learn ultra small fragments of melodies of standards (or fragments of the most recognisable part of the tune). For example, the first 3 notes of Autumn Leaves (G, A, Bb) is basically a chord-tone to passing-tone to chord-tone thing. Then adjust it for major/dominant chords, and play an entire chorus of another tune with this idea. I try my best to feel this line as an emotive device instead of a 'lick'.

What do you think of this system of developing the ear and learning melodic improvisation? Good or needlessly difficult? Can it be improved or streamlined?

This seems a good method, but it will be a slow process. Can you stick at it long term? avoiding the distractions of other (new & shiny) methods. I'd hazard a guess that most methods are abandoned by players within a few weeks and a new method adopted. (I'm speaking from experience.)

Yes, music would be better learnt by hearing sounds. IMHO.

Personally, I can't see sounds. Synaesthesia.

[pamosmusic]

I love stuff like this. I do this quite a lot:

I play the melody in every position and on every pair of strings. Sometimes single strings. another good one is trading twos or fours with the melody — improvise, melody, improvise, melody.

[brent.h]

Can you stick at it long term?

Lol only time will tell!

[grahambop]

I did quite a lot of transcribing of solos when I started out, I also worked out both the melody and the changes to a load of standards by ear from records (because I didn’t have any fakebooks, I didn’t even know they were a thing, and there was no internet back then!). I didn’t always write out whole solos, sometimes I just copied and learned individual phrases without writing them down.

I think this really trained my ears a lot (to the point of being able to identify all the intervals in chords), plus I learned a lot of useful vocabulary.

[charlieparker]

I did quite a lot of transcribing of solos when I started out, I also worked out both the melody and the changes to a load of standards by ear from records (because I didn’t have any fakebooks, I didn’t even know they were a thing, and there was no internet back then!). I didn’t always write out whole solos, sometimes I just copied and learned individual phrases without writing them down.

I think this really trained my ears a lot (to the point of being able to identify all the intervals in chords), plus I learned a lot of useful vocabulary.

That's impressive. I find I am ok at hearing and transcribing melodies but chords are difficult for me. It all sounds so muddy and I tend to hear ghost notes.

I have been focusing on transcribing the bass line and the solos and heads of tunes. I guess I should spend more time on chords as I can't really here that clearly the different extensions being played.

[Mick-7]

I thought my ears were kinda ok because I sing every single note I play while practising and even on the bandstand.

But these advanced players at my jam session have ears on another level: when I end my solo with a particular note or phrase, the next soloist just picks up the exact note/phrase and runs with it for the next chorus.

And their solos develop into super melodic, fresh stuff without needing to fall back on bop lines.

I'm guessing that there are 2 things that allow them to do this so instantaneously: the ability to hear intervals very precisely and a lifetime of playing all kinds of melodies and tunes.

I'm at a point in my playing where I want to be able to hear my way through a song effortlessly like these guys.

I don't want to fall back on arpeggios, bebop triplet arpeggios, Barry Harris fragments, rules, scales, chromatics, or 5432 phrases or any of my automatic muscle memory lines that outline the changes. I can sing & play these things, but they don't feel genuinely improvised. They're prepared and don't come from a place of "Oooh I just heard someone play this and Imma react/use that".

To get there, I'm mining the melodies of tunes really really hard. This has been my process:

1) Take any melody - songbook tunes, current pop music, nursery rhymes - and sing the melody super slowly. Identify the interval between each note. This has been quite painful and difficult.

2) Play the melody anywhere on the guitar. Start with any finger. Play the melody/interval without looking at the fretboard. Forces me to find appropriate fingerings for the intervals. (I just try to imagine how a blind jazz musician might do this.) This has been crazy difficult.

3) Learn ultra small fragments of melodies of standards (or fragments of the most recognizable part of the tune). For example, the first 3 notes of Autumn Leaves (G, A, Bb) is basically a chord-tone to passing-tone to chord-tone thing. Then adjust it for major/dominant chords, and play an entire chorus of another tune with this idea. I try my best to feel this line as an emotive device instead of a 'lick'.

What do you think of this system of developing the ear and learning melodic improvisation? Good or needlessly difficult? Can it be improved or streamlined?

Also, has anyone tried this approach to free him/herself from the shackles of prepared licks and changes-running?

I was going to suggest that this be our next exercise for the improvisation study group thread I started (Here: Approaches to Improvisation). We'll see how that goes....

Judging by your comments, it's important for you to work on ear training.

I found that you can accelerate your progress by practicing away from the instrument. Get a flash card of the guitar fret-board with all the notes printed on it and keep it in your wallet, you can use it to practice anywhere (wouldn't recommend doing it while driving though). This is something that Howard Roberts stresses in his Praxis System books, i.e., think of a phrase, imagine how it will sound and how you'll play it on the guitar, and then play it. And Tuck Andrews said that his ear improved dramatically when he began transcribing solos without the instrument in hand. (Hmm, I wanted to upload a Howard Roberts quote re: this topic but the forums file upload function is not working now.)

"2) Play the melody anywhere on the guitar. Start with any finger. Play the melody/interval without looking at the fretboard. Forces me to find appropriate fingerings for the intervals. (I just try to imagine how a blind jazz musician might do this.) This has been crazy difficult."

If you practice scales in intervals, all over the fret-board, you'll know how they lay out and can be fingered.

I have been focusing on transcribing the bass line and the solos and heads of tunes. I guess I should spend more time on chords as I can't really here that clearly the different extensions being played.

If you've done that, you're half way there: the melody and the bass line together will suggest the chords. Then make them triads, identify the chord character: major, minor, dim or aug., and your work is pretty much done.

[pauln]

To get there, I'm mining the melodies of tunes really really hard. This has been my process:

1) Take any melody - songbook tunes, current pop music, nursery rhymes - and sing the melody super slowly. Identify the interval between each note. This has been quite painful and difficult.

2) Play the melody anywhere on the guitar. Start with any finger. Play the melody/interval without looking at the fretboard. Forces me to find appropriate fingerings for the intervals. (I just try to imagine how a blind jazz musician might do this.) This has been crazy difficult.

3) Learn ultra small fragments of melodies of standards (or fragments of the most recognisable part of the tune). For example, the first 3 notes of Autumn Leaves (G, A, Bb) is basically a chord-tone to passing-tone to chord-tone thing. Then adjust it for major/dominant chords, and play an entire chorus of another tune with this idea. I try my best to feel this line as an emotive device instead of a 'lick'.

I don't understand what you are doing yet; could you explain further? First, exactly how are you identifying and fingering "the interval between each note"?

Are you identifying the intervals with reference to a key note, chord root, scale tonic, or with relative respect to the previous pitch (as you say, the intervals between notes) or something else?
If intervals between notes, how do you identify an interval when descending (or do you use negative intervals)?

Are you fingering the melody conceived as a sequence of intervals between notes?
If intervals between notes, how do you finger an interval when descending (or do you use negative intervals)?

[rpjazzguitar]

I thought my ears were kinda ok because I sing every single note I play while practising and even on the bandstand.

But these advanced players at my jam session have ears on another level: when I end my solo with a particular note or phrase, the next soloist just picks up the exact note/phrase and runs with it for the next chorus.

And their solos develop into super melodic, fresh stuff without needing to fall back on bop lines.

I'm guessing that there are 2 things that allow them to do this so instantaneously: the ability to hear intervals very precisely and a lifetime of playing all kinds of melodies and tunes.

I'm at a point in my playing where I want to be able to hear my way through a song effortlessly like these guys.

I don't want to fall back on arpeggios, bebop triplet arpeggios, Barry Harris fragments, rules, scales, chromatics, or 5432 phrases or any of my automatic muscle memory lines that outline the changes. I can sing & play these things, but they don't feel genuinely improvised. They're prepared and don't come from a place of "Oooh I just heard someone play this and Imma react/use that".

To get there, I'm mining the melodies of tunes really really hard. This has been my process:

1) Take any melody - songbook tunes, current pop music, nursery rhymes - and sing the melody super slowly. Identify the interval between each note. This has been quite painful and difficult.

2) Play the melody anywhere on the guitar. Start with any finger. Play the melody/interval without looking at the fretboard. Forces me to find appropriate fingerings for the intervals. (I just try to imagine how a blind jazz musician might do this.) This has been crazy difficult.

3) Learn ultra small fragments of melodies of standards (or fragments of the most recognisable part of the tune). For example, the first 3 notes of Autumn Leaves (G, A, Bb) is basically a chord-tone to passing-tone to chord-tone thing. Then adjust it for major/dominant chords, and play an entire chorus of another tune with this idea. I try my best to feel this line as an emotive device instead of a 'lick'.

What do you think of this system of developing the ear and learning melodic improvisation? Good or needlessly difficult? Can it be improved or streamlined?

Also, has anyone tried this approach to free him/herself from the shackles of prepared licks and changes-running?

Seems like a good approach to me, as long as it's enjoyable enough to stick with it.

The only thing I'll mention is that, somehow over the decades, I became able to play any bit of melody I hear, within reason, without knowing the intervals. My fingers go to the right notes and I may have to stop and think about my fingers to identify the intervals. I can't do the comparable thing with chords and not for lack of trying.

[Mick-7]

The only thing I'll mention is that, somehow over the decades, I became able to play any bit of melody I hear, within reason, without knowing the intervals. My fingers go to the right notes and I may have to stop and think about my fingers to identify the intervals.

Yes, that should happen once you've developed your musical memory. People sometimes find the wider intervals harder to hear, e.g., a minor 7th down. If you have trouble with a particular interval, find a song melody that starts with that interval and sing and play it in all keys until it sticks -- Interval Song Chart Generator - EarMaster

I suspect that most musicians identify chords by their melody note and/or bass note (when improvising).

[brent.h]

I don't understand what you are doing yet; could you explain further? First, exactly how are you identifying and fingering "the interval between each note"?

Are you identifying the intervals with reference to a key note, chord root, scale tonic, or with relative respect to the previous pitch (as you say, the intervals between notes) or something else?
If intervals between notes, how do you identify an interval when descending (or do you use negative intervals)?

Are you fingering the melody conceived as a sequence of intervals between notes?
If intervals between notes, how do you finger an interval when descending (or do you use negative intervals)?

I'm identifying intervals with relative respect to the previous pitch.

Let's use the first 3 notes of Have You Met Miss Jones (A, C, D) as an example.

I'd sing A, then D (go back and forth as needed). Then identify the distance between them. Melody descends, so this going down a perfect fifth.

Next, sing D, then C. Identify distance. Melody descends again. This would be going down a major second.

Repeat process for every single pair of notes.

As for the fingerings, I will try my best to use whichever finger that's free to fret the second note of each pair.

So returning to HYMMJ, I'd play:
- A on 2nd string, 10th fret, with pinky
- D on 3rd string, 7th fret, with index finger
- C on 4th string, 10th fret, with ring finger

Something like that.

[pauln]

Your order A C D (typo) should be A D C like your description of getting the interval and the fingering.

When you sing, are you singing unnamed pitches or named notes? I mean are you determining the interval using pitch alone or using the note names?

Or maybe you may or may not know the note names in advance but deliberately use just pitch to assign the interval? If so, that is good, but you might consider using pitch directly to skip deriving the intervals - that is, using the pitches exclusively for both hearing and fingering, instead of naming the intervals for the purpose of applying them to the note names.

<< warning - playing by ear propaganda - warning >>

Assuming the modern standard of equal temperament any relative thirteen consecutive chromatic pitches represents each and all of the thirteen pitch classes only once.

Up to two accidentals, each pitch class may take two or three note names (only one takes two note names, G#/Ab), and each note name may identify five different
pitch classes... including duplicates that is thirty-five unique note names for the thirteen (enharmonic with respect to multiple note names) pitch classes.

Furthermore, individual named intervals (with qualities) may identify multiple pairs of different note names, and individual pairs of note names may identify multiple different named intervals.

Uncomplicated, complete, consistent, and coherent pitch class has the potential of offering the most direct path upon which to establish musical grasp of melody and harmony because it's exclusively by ear without external reference, extraction, translation, or other manipulation; it does not even need the names of things at all.

[brent.h]

oops sorry about the typo

Yeah when I'm doing this singing thing, I'm not thinking about note names. (I appreciate your effort in the write up above.) I'm just focusing on the sounds and what the distances feel like if I was blind and uneducated about music theory, note names, etc. So, simply relying on my ears alone. Me using the HYMMJ example is just meant to illustrate the process.

I like practising this process with tunes that I know by ear but never played before. Quite challenging.

[pauln]

I like practising this process with tunes that I know by ear but never played before. Quite challenging.

Now I understand, what you're doing is excellent.

[AdroitMage]

To the OP, and anyone else who does this: if you're singing your lines when you play, I have one suggestion; stop! Why? Because, IMO it just gets in the way. Sure, occasionally if you want to do your best George Benson impression and sing the exact same lines you're playing into the mic, then that's cool, but as far as doing it all the time, I would say don't. Why not? well, for one, I believe it just gets in the way for most people. And two, IMO, music is about playing what you hear and feel, so, for me, I'm playing what I hear, and my voice isn't always nimble enough to sing, exactly, the complex jazz lines I'm hearing, but my fingers can play them. So for me, singing the lines just get's in the way.

I know, I know, I know, you've heard George Benson do it and he sounds absolutely amazing doing it, BUT, that's what makes it so great when George does it, that not that many guys can do it the way he does it and sound so great doing it, he's just gifted like that. Now some chode will come in here and post a clip of some other guy doing it, as if that's doing something. I'm sure George isn't the only person who can do it, but he's the one who made it famous, and it's not something that every guitarist can do and George does it exceptionally well.

When I tended to sing lines when I was learning was away from the tunes, like when I was listening or just thinking of great jazz solos, like George Benson for example (I used his playing examples a lot) and sang those lines away from the tune. I could have been doing something totally unrelated, like washing the dishes, but I was also "multitasking" by practicing my phrasing by singing George Benson solos while I was washing the dishes. But when I'm in playing mode, most of the time I'm listening and playing. Listening to the (hopefully) great and sophisticated lines I hear in my head and then playing them. It's like a split brain exercise, hearing the lines in your head and playing them while also listening to what you actually play so you can control it, and also listening to the band so you can play in a way that you become part of the music, not just playing over the top of it, but part of it.
Some here might think I'm arrogant because I put the adjectives (great and sophisticated) in the same sentence where I was describing my playing. Well, that's the goal. I just believe that you've got to have a goal, if you want to have any chance of achieving it.

So yes, when I was learning I did sing lines a lot because it is a valuable exercise, but I generally did it away from the tunes as described above.

[pamosmusic]

Keith Jarrett eat your heart out, I guess

[deacon Mark]

Keith Jarrett moaning as he plays, I don't listen to it at all completely distracting and nonmusical.

[pamosmusic]

Keith Jarrett moaning as he plays, I don't listen to it at all completely distracting and nonmusical.

I can tell you at least one person who couldn’t care less what you think.

his name is Keith Jarrett.

[pauln]

To the OP, and anyone else who does this: if you're singing your lines when you play, I have one suggestion; stop! Why? Because, IMO it just gets in the way. Sure, occasionally if you want to do your best George Benson impression and sing the exact same lines you're playing into the mic, then that's cool, but as far as doing it all the time, I would say don't. Why not? well, for one, I believe it just gets in the way for most people. And two, IMO, music is about playing what you hear and feel, so, for me, I'm playing what I hear, and my voice isn't always nimble enough to sing, exactly, the complex jazz lines I'm hearing, but my fingers can play them. So for me, singing the lines just get's in the way.

I know, I know, I know, you've heard George Benson do it and he sounds absolutely amazing doing it, BUT, that's what makes it so great when George does it, that not that many guys can do it the way he does it and sound so great doing it, he's just gifted like that. Now some chode will come in here and post a clip of some other guy doing it, as if that's doing something. I'm sure George isn't the only person who can do it, but he's the one who made it famous, and it's not something that every guitarist can do and George does it exceptionally well.

When I tended to sing lines when I was learning was away from the tunes, like when I was listening or just thinking of great jazz solos, like George Benson for example (I used his playing examples a lot) and sang those lines away from the tune. I could have been doing something totally unrelated, like washing the dishes, but I was also "multitasking" by practicing my phrasing by singing George Benson solos while I was washing the dishes. But when I'm in playing mode, most of the time I'm listening and playing. Listening to the (hopefully) great and sophisticated lines I hear in my head and then playing them. It's like a split brain exercise, hearing the lines in your head and playing them while also listening to what you actually play so you can control it, and also listening to the band so you can play in a way that you become part of the music, not just playing over the top of it, but part of it.
Some here might think I'm arrogant because I put the adjectives (great and sophisticated) in the same sentence where I was describing my playing. Well, that's the goal. I just believe that you've got to have a goal, if you want to have any chance of achieving it.

So yes, when I was learning I did sing lines a lot because it is a valuable exercise, but I generally did it away from the tunes as described above.

When people say "transcribe" they may mean writing it down, but may mean just hearing it and remembering it.
Same with "singing lines"; sometimes it means out loud, but may also mean in your head - where it's fast, not range limited, and you can also sing chords.

[brent.h]

To the OP, and anyone else who does this: if you're singing your lines when you play, I have one suggestion; stop! Why? Because, IMO it just gets in the way. Sure, occasionally if you want to do your best George Benson impression and sing the exact same lines you're playing into the mic, then that's cool, but as far as doing it all the time, I would say don't. Why not? well, for one, I believe it just gets in the way for most people. And two, IMO, music is about playing what you hear and feel, so, for me, I'm playing what I hear, and my voice isn't always nimble enough to sing, exactly, the complex jazz lines I'm hearing, but my fingers can play them. So for me, singing the lines just get's in the way.

I know, I know, I know, you've heard George Benson do it and he sounds absolutely amazing doing it, BUT, that's what makes it so great when George does it, that not that many guys can do it the way he does it and sound so great doing it, he's just gifted like that. Now some chode will come in here and post a clip of some other guy doing it, as if that's doing something. I'm sure George isn't the only person who can do it, but he's the one who made it famous, and it's not something that every guitarist can do and George does it exceptionally well.

When I tended to sing lines when I was learning was away from the tunes, like when I was listening or just thinking of great jazz solos, like George Benson for example (I used his playing examples a lot) and sang those lines away from the tune. I could have been doing something totally unrelated, like washing the dishes, but I was also "multitasking" by practicing my phrasing by singing George Benson solos while I was washing the dishes. But when I'm in playing mode, most of the time I'm listening and playing. Listening to the (hopefully) great and sophisticated lines I hear in my head and then playing them. It's like a split brain exercise, hearing the lines in your head and playing them while also listening to what you actually play so you can control it, and also listening to the band so you can play in a way that you become part of the music, not just playing over the top of it, but part of it.
Some here might think I'm arrogant because I put the adjectives (great and sophisticated) in the same sentence where I was describing my playing. Well, that's the goal. I just believe that you've got to have a goal, if you want to have any chance of achieving it.

So yes, when I was learning I did sing lines a lot because it is a valuable exercise, but I generally did it away from the tunes as described above.

I'm wondering why you didn't bother asking me why I sing my lines in the first place and jumped straight into suggesting that I don't.

I don't have ears or thought processes like you. I'm not a great player/learner like you. I have to sing because I don't audiate as well as you. I have to sing to find the ideas.

What's with the assumption that I listened to George Benson and want to imitate him? He's not my model of how to improvise. Lester Young, Charlie Christian, and Barry Harris are. I don't listen to Benson much as I don't dig his sound as much as other players.

[wolflen]

There are many ways to increase melodic awareness. For me the use of melodic patterns in all keys and positions.

Some may think this too basic and a more advanced method is sought after. Some time when I teach and a student says they want a more
challenging approach. OK how about a Coltrane pattern..1 2 3 5..thats simple is an expected reply.

Really..Ok do it for every scale degree in every key and position..then for various progressions..ii7 V7 I7 then iii7 vi7 ii7 V7 I7 then chromatic and secondary cycles

then choose ONE tune and play that in all keys.

This of course turns out to be ALOT of work. I also highly recommend writing this down to reinforce reading and memory exercise.

If this is done as a regular approach to melodic development along with rhythmic variations of the patterns..improvement will happen.

Considering that there are hundreds of patterns..and ways to incorporate this kind of study. Your being able to identify the location and interval of chord
notes becomes part of this process so the melodic techniques of enclosing and other ways to enhance a melody note develop naturally.

singing is optional..

[pauln]

I sing in my head which like thinking in words or reading silently is well known to invoke parallel corresponding silent/sub-vocal low level physical activity within the physiology of vocalization. If you try, you can detect this; it feels like the vocal chords silently shadowing what they would do if producing the words or sounds in your head...

When playing the guitar, my first principles have always centered around the idea that what I'm really doing is "singing through my hands". That perspective for me clarifies a multitude of things - what to sound like, how to do it, how to make it work, how to make it work in context with other things, how to judge how well it worked, etc... all about the cycle of listening, singing and fingering, then listening, evaluation, and judgement.

[pamosmusic]

I sing while I play. Took some time a while back to break the habit but I still do it, particularly when I’m not thinking. Also I decided I don’t care.

[MinToyTot]

If you can sing it but you can't play it, you've got a problem. If you can play it but you can't sing it, you've got a problem. Doing both at the same time helps me to recognize and address any disparity between my inner ear and instrumental fluency... We ain't talking bout the game...