Analyze this lick in Cm7 (Mike Stern)

[MJean]

Can anyone help me understand this passage from a Mike Stern solo.

He plays this phrase on a Cmin chord and I don't know how to understand it, it sounds like he starts his phrase in locrian, but the rest doesn't fit and he seems to end with a diminished passage.

I can't understand the idea behind this passage. Is there a substitution I don't understand?

It's beautiful, a nice little tension, but I'd like to understand the logic behind it.

[Christian Miller]

I feel like the line would make more sense with the next measure because it doesn’t quite resolve to my ears.

It’s a couple of major pentatonics tetrachords outlining Db and Gb and then a short like that appears to relate to Cm(maj7) though I’m not 100% sure.

The Db and Gb are ‘outside choices’ but sound logical because the 1-2-3-5 very clearly outlines the superimposed harmony.

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[MJean]

Thanks, that makes sense. Mike Stern makes great use of chromaticism and embellishment, I know his solos can fail a "classical" analysis.

[Mick-7]

Where does it go next?

b9th (Db) and b5th (Gb) are the altered tones commonly played over a Cm7(b5) chord.

[MJean]

Where does it go next?

b9th (Db) and b5th (Gb) are the altered tones commonly played over a Cm7(b5) chord.

F Eb and D descending.

[Mick-7]

F Eb and D descending.

I meant the chord progression.... if it's to a V7 chord (F7 or B7) or he's substituting it, as that phrase suggests, than it fits. But really, lines don't have to make theoretical sense, just sound good.

[MJean]

I meant the chord progression.... if it's to a V7 chord (F7 or B7) or he's substituting it, as that phrase suggests, than it fits. But really, lines don't have to make theoretical sense, just sound good.

Oups, ok, no, is a static Cm. All the solo is over Cm. But you're right, I was just trying to understand if there was a logic underlying this passage.

[pamosmusic]

Yeah I think he’s chromatically ditching Cm and using some strong melodic patterns to do it. 1235s are a great way to do that and you often see it either a half step up or down, or at the tritone. So he’s got 1235 from Gb against the Cm. The B and A not really sure. Nice little whole toney vibe that gets him back to that super inside finishing pattern of Ab G Fb D.

With guys like Mike Stern, especially in a modal vibe, you’re going to see a lot of just nice chromatic stuff that voiceleads back home. Theory stuff won’t really get you there. Just kind of note what’s going on and experiment with it on your own.

[pauln]

There is something going on... sounds like the first five notes quote the melody of "There Will Never Be Another You" in key of Db... where the next chord would be Cm7...?

[Jonah]

Out of what is given I would second what was said above: deliberate superimposing harmony to be outside, like he is floating over and around Cm (motive structure is very clear)


But I wonder what the tune is? the record? Just would like to hear it in the context.
Thank you

[pamosmusic]

There is something going on... sounds like the first five notes quote the melody of "There Will Never Be Another You" in key of Db... where the next chord would be Cm7...?

Not really. Another You is from the fifth on that pickup note, then ascends by step to the third, skips to the octave fifth.

It’s just that 1235 pattern you’re hearing. It’s all over the place … Out of Nowhere. Coltrane on Giant Steps, Another You almost, others.

[MJean]

Out of what is given I would second what was said above: deliberate superimposing harmony to be outside, like he is floating over and around Cm (motive structure is very clear)


But I wonder what the tune is? the record? Just would like to hear it in the context.
Thank you

The tune is Chatter, album « these times »...2 min 11’

[setemupjoe]

Looks to me that he’s playing a beat of a Db chord, a beat of a Gb chord, and a beat of B7. Moving through it Giant Steps style using variations of the 1 2 3 5 pattern around the circle of 5ths. Possibly just creating outside tension so he can resolve it back into Cmi.

[MJean]

Looks to me that he’s playing a beat of a Db chord, a beat of a Gb chord, and a beat of B7. Moving through it Giant Steps style using variations of the 1 2 3 5 pattern around the circle of 5ths. Possibly just creating outside tension so he can resolve it back into Cmi.

Makes sens, Mike Stern work a lot Giant Steps.

[Strat-itis]

Looks to me that he’s playing a beat of a Db chord, a beat of a Gb chord, and a beat of B7. Moving through it Giant Steps style using variations of the 1 2 3 5 pattern around the circle of 5ths. Possibly just creating outside tension so he can resolve it back into Cmi.

I actually think you nailed it.

[pamosmusic]

I actually think you nailed it.

+1

[Bob_Ross]

Mike Stern makes great use of chromaticism

Yeah I think he’s chromatically ditching Cm and using some strong melodic patterns to do it. ...[snip]...With guys like Mike Stern, especially in a modal vibe, you’re going to see a lot of just nice chromatic stuff that voiceleads back home. Theory stuff won’t really get you there.

^^^This. Back in 1977 I used to go hear Mike Stern when he was playing around Boston, he was recently out of Berklee, hadn't yet hooked up with Miles Davis, might have already done the BS&T gig... and his use of chromatic sequence patterns was so ubiquitous then that it almost became a joke: My buddy Seth and I would sit in the audience and yell "Play it again up a half step!" when we were feeling particularly rowdy.

So yeah, when you recognize his use of a pattern that moves around intervallically or chromatically, it's almost a sign that he's not thinking harmonically, he's thinking Inside/Outside (or, Outside/Outsider/Outsidest) and looking waaay ahead towards (eventual) resolution.

[ragman1]

He's trying to be like Metheny and not quite making it :-)