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This question has probably already been discussed but I'll ask anyway. I've been playing quite a while and done plenty of small time gigs so I kind of have my own answer to this question but I'm interested in what you think. I hope to eventually post some examples of my playing so you can tell me what you think about that later.
Standards today usually include some altered chords. These usually sound good to me, depending on the voicing and how they're played; so then I get to decide what to do when I solo over them. I've tried different approaches. Teachers often suggest some type of altered scale which includes some of the altered chord tones and that makes sense except these scales can be challenging to phrase and I'm pretty tired of hearing people play scales over tunes, even if they are at light speed. Of course there is a time and place, but still . . . .
But what is the logic here? The altered chord already contains a mixture of tones that clash either mildly or strongly so whatever tones I play will clash with part of the chord unless I go up high. I could just play the basic triad and it would still sound outside. And if I do manage to include all of the chord tones then I'm just doubling the comp part which isn't necessarily a good sound either. The basic rule of phrasing is to have tension and resolve but how do you resolve to an altered chord?
Since altered chords often precede a tonic of some kind my approach is generally to just float over the altered harmony and resolve when it's over if that fits. I don't bother with altered scales and I'm pretty stingy with diminished and whole tone scales as well. I feel like I can find tones that work (sort of?) over most chords by ear to some extent anyway so I usually just wing it which is kind of the whole idea anyway.
But what do you think?
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05-17-2025 09:27 PM
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Usually “altered” is a way of describing the tritone chord.
Do whatever you’d do over the dominant, but do it up a tritone. So if it’s G7 going to C, that’s Db7.
So you can practice all your G7 stuff resolving to C, and then just practice the same stuff resolving down a half step to F#.
Do that with all your dominants and you’re off to the races.
To answer the actual question, it doesn’t really matter.
When it’s a dominant chord, you should play dominant stuff that resolves nicely to the next chord. It doesn’t honestly matter that much if it matches the chord the pianist is playing. If it matches the altered chord then that’s pretty cool. If it’s regular dominant stuff that clashes with the altered chord then that’s another flavor of weird, which is the point of super dissonant dominants anyway.
Its more important probably to know that certain alterations are more common in certain situations — a minor tonic likes b9 and b13 on its dominant, for example, and not so much the natural 9 and 13 — but even those things are not super hard and fast.
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Let's take a simple case, G7alt to Cmaj7.
I have the impression (and others may know more) that a guitarist is likely to play the notes of Db13, which, from the point of view of G7 includes the #9 and b13.
If you play those notes in your solo while the pianist plays a Db13, it's going to sound consonant, except maybe against the G in the bass. Nothing wrong with consonant, unless you're trying to play more outside.
Depending on the situation (always good to post a tune to illustrate a point), it might be better for the pianist just to play G7 and the soloist then sounds great playing his Db13 arp.
But, if the chart says alt, the pianist may read it accurately. What then? One option is to give up. Play anything that will work over a V I (G7 to C) and make sure your melody is strong.
If I've understood the OP, this is the issue -- the relationship between the chord and the soloist's notes. The most straightforward way through is for the pianist to leave the altered notes to the lead instrument. But, it won't necessarily happen that way, so next easiest is to play any strong melodic line and don't worry about it too much. Record it and if you don't like it later do something else next time.
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For what it’s worth, unless we’re in post bop territory, extensions are almost always an illustration of the melody.
If it’s in a lead sheet, you’ll usually find the weird note in the melody. If it’s in a big band chart, it’s often a voiceleading that makes the saxophone line work better or something (e.g. tenor 2 had three Gs in a row over that C7 chord so the arranger made the middle one a Gb so that the line was easier to swing, thus was born a 7b5 chord)
Yes there are exceptions.
b9 chords are often a shorthand for “play minor cadence junk”
Also just Monk in general.
But most of the time on most tunes pre 1960, I think that’s the case.
Why is that relevant?
Because, like rp said, you are now the melody and a good accompanist will let you be the melody. And any extensions they play will have an internal melodic logic so they won’t seem clashy and out of place.
then again — also like rp said — lots of accompanists are bad accompanists.
say la vee
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The scale most commonly used for an altered V7 chord is the melodic minor scale a 1/2 higher than the chord, e.g., Ab melodic minor for G7 (Ab-Bb-B-Db-Eb-F-G). But it's just the Ab Major scale with a b3rd, so you could just use the major scale and add the b3rd (Cb/B) to it.
For a G7#11 "lydian dominant" chord, one would normally use D melodic minor (D-E-F-G-A-B-C#), but again, the only difference between it and D major is the b3rd, so you can just add that note (F) to the D major scale.
I would add the diminished scale, it's a good choice for dominant 7b9 chords, and it's symmetrical so easy to learn and apply. The whole tone scale is too, but it takes some work to make it sound natural.
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I'll tell you what I think but the question is whether you'll listen or not. I've done this for years and do it every time I pick up a guitar. So it's up to you, not me.
The clue is in your question. Read what you've said very carefully.
Why do you think they're challenging to phrase? It's a question of familiarity. A melodic minor pattern is no more difficult to play than a major scale pattern. All you have to do is play it.Teachers often suggest some type of altered scale which includes some of the altered chord tones and that makes sense except these scales can be challenging to phrase
Depends how they're used. It's not a question of running up and down a consecutive series of notes like a machine. It's a question of knowing what notes are available and being able to use them to connect one thing with another.I'm pretty tired of hearing people play scales over tunes
Then clash them, that's the whole point. It's usually momentary. Besides, if you're using the right notes for the right chord it won't clash in the wrong way.The altered chord already contains a mixture of tones that clash either mildly or strongly so whatever tones I play will clash with part of the chord
The same way as you resolve anything else. The next note is nearly always a half-tone or tone away. So it comes down to familiarity with your notes. Which, in turn comes down to familiarity with playing them.how do you resolve to an altered chord?
I don't know what that means. Either play it or don't play it. In any case, you can't be frightened of it. If you know the notes are right play them with confidence. Using altered sounds is not for the squeamish.my approach is generally to just float over the altered harmony
Then you're missing out on knowing available options. As I said, it's not a question of running a scale but of knowing the notes that do the job.I don't bother with altered scales
Sounds like you're winging it and floating it because you haven't approached the whole thing properly. Study it more, practice it diligently, and gain confidence to make altered sounds work. I doubt if there's really any other way.I feel like I can find tones that work (sort of?) over most chords by ear to some extent anyway so I usually just wing it which is kind of the whole idea anyway
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The whole point of the dominant chord is to create tension and movement towards its resolution chord (mainly through the 3-7 tritone present). By altering the 5 and the 9 (meaning substituting them with b9 and #9, b5 #5), the altered scale increases that tension and makes for a more intense resolution. The way i see the altered scale is 1 b9 #9 3 b5 #5 b7
Practice the dominant #5 arpeggio (C E #G Bb) and the sound of the G7alt chord will start making sense. Then practice filling the arpeggio with the altered scale (G altered = Ab melodic minor). Half of it is playing the scale, half of it is resolving it to the next chord (which is almost always its fourth). It is the beginning of out playing, and a pretty common sound in jazz for decades. If Wes played it..
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You have to practice and listen a lot.
Originally Posted by Ingo Lee
If you have all this in you, you can use it freely.
Someone once said: "jazz is about endless practice and rehearsals'.
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Usually the comp part only contains a some of the more important chord tones not all 7. I'm curious, does that mean your soloing strategy is based on avoiding chord tones? When you make good melodies that contain chord tones, the "doubled" notes don't sound redundant against the harmony. This is true in all music classical, pop, jazz. Even in counterpoint, you usually have two melodies that draw from the same harmony (ie chord tones, implied or explicit). The melodies will still sound distinct and not redundant. It'll sound redundant only if there isn't sufficient textural, rhythmic or phrasal distinction in parts. We don't have that many notes to begin with after all. Originally Posted by Ingo Lee
If I understand this correctly, your approach is to wing it by ear over most type of chords, not just the altered chords. So this thread could be about any of those chords as well? Also I am not sure if I understand what you mean by finding tones that work over a chord by ear if playing chord tones doesn't sound good to you? Originally Posted by Ingo Lee
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A good piece of advice I once got from my teacher was: when soloing over alt dom chord just focus on one extension at a time, and this time tell the story about THIS alteration. Don't use all of them in 1-2 bar improv
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It would be cool to hear a recording from the OP. Otherwise we're just guessing at what they sound like.
Sometimes I think there could be a better word than "resolve." Things don't so much resolve as they just move onto something else, which then moves onto something else.
G7 resolves to CMaj. But an F7 before that G7 isn't really resolving as much as it's just a harmonic movement thru G7 as it goes to CMaj.
This probably isn't answering the OP directly, but dominants are often altered to create different movements (not necessarily resolutions). The alterations make the movements sound hipper than just V -> I.
You definitely don't have to play every note in an altered dominant when you're soloing (which is what I think you mean when you say you're "floating over" those chords).
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Hi! Originally Posted by Ingo Lee
In this video I discuss some possible solutions for improvising over altered dominant chords. Apart from theoretical information I think the useful part of the video is where I play in practice 10 melodic phrases over harmonic progressions with altered chords. I think it's a good starting point.
I think it's important to understand that in jazz played in "real-life" (not in theory books...) the good musicians plays melodic lines with various alterations over NON-altered chords and VICEVERSA. To think of playing melodic lines with various alterations ONLY on altered chords is, in my opinion, the death of jazz.
Ettore
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Wow that's a great response, lot's of good information. Thank you all for replying. I'm used to forums where you're lucky to get a view let alone a response, and these responses are all thoughtful and informative.
I used the term 'wing it' but I should say that my approach to playing does include scales. I started by learning chords and arpeggios and then thanks to Jamey Aebersold I started practicing scales. Knowing scales gives me a vocabulary to draw from so knowing altered scales and tones does the same. That said I don't like playing scales unless they fit whatever idea I might have which certainly happens. On a tune I'm familiar with I might not think in terms of chords or scales but more often I will take my cue from remembering the underlying harmony or reading it from a chart.
I used the term 'floating' which is not a very precise term. I see altered harmonies as a wide open palette where I'm not obligated in any particular direction so I can be spontaneous in my response.
I hope to post some examples of my playing soon. This should make it easier to know my approach and make comments and suggestions. I look forward to that. Thanks again for responding!
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The video in kris' post mentions "the cheeseburger notes"
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The most important thing is that you hear what you're playing. Theoretical harmony is all fake if you can hear an idea and sell it well. As proof of that, Herbie Hancock.
But for me, a mortal, the only real differentiation I make is between chords with a sharp vs natural 5/natural 13 vs b13. Natural 5/natural 13 chords with other alterations get diminished scale, #5/b13 gets altered scale. And that doesn't mean just running the scale necessarily. Use arpeggios, triad and 7th. For example, an augmented 7th arpeggio from the maj 3 of a 7#5 chord sounds fresh.
The only other thing I'll do is pentatonic shifting stuff that's kind of its own sound, so I generally ignore alterations in the chord. Minor pentatonic from b9, #9, b5, etc.
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I see 4 stages of improvising over an altered chord (as in most chords). You begin by learning a few shapes of the chord so you can play altered chords in different areas of the fretboard. Then:
1. Playing the Dom7#5 arpeggio, so one gets to really hear the character of the chord.
2. Playing the altered scale, either by learning its shapes, or by thinking of the melodic minor shapes one step above.
3. Playing harmonic material from the scale in the bebop fashion, so all its chords, triads, arpeggios, melodic shapes, enclosures, progressions etc..
4. Seeing the altered dominant chord more freely just as a dominant move that creates tension and resolves it to the next chord, so playing outside anything over it as long as it creates tension and movement (for example i could think of playing a half whole diminished scale over a G7, which contains 4 dominant chords, G Bb7 Db E), and end up playing around Bb7-> C instead of G7->C. Or i could think of resolving to A-7 instead of a Cmaj7 (they are relative, tonic chords), so G7alt->Cmaj7 becomes E7->A-7, etc.. Endless searching, you can fill pages with substitutions over a II-V-I..Last edited by Alter; 05-20-2025 at 03:59 AM.
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The altered dominant
It’s voice leading
No it’s a thing
No its voice leading
No it’s a thing fr
Nah boss it’s voice leading
So - I think for most beginner/intermediate jazz players it may be more helpful to view the altered dominant as voice leading - so in its traditional II V I sort of role as a chromatic passing tones into the I chord. The classic flat 9 of the V going to 5 of the I sort of business (Ab to G in the key of C)
Anyway here a thing I did
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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One issue that can be challenging with certain chords, especially (for me anyway) if diminished harmony is involved, is keeping all the combinatorics straight enough in your mind to actually use them.
Sometimes I read that diminished harmony is easy because it repeats every three frets. But, the naming of things gets overwhelming. I have no ready solution for that. Too often, I end up playing a dim arp or a 7b9 arp because I can grab them before my consciousness clouds over.
Alt seems easier to me. The sound I hear most often is this.
Against a G7, I often hear xx3446, which is actually G7#9b13.
To make it easier, think "minor triad (add9) a half step up. So, Abm(add9). To my ear that's a classic jazz guitar sound. So, if you want a classic jazz guitar sound you can use it, or if you don't want a classic sound now you know something to avoid.
After you get bored with that and you're fortified enough to approach some analytics, I'd suggest this.
Galt has the same notes as Abmelmin. Every chord generated by a melodic minor is the same chord. Per Mark Levine. Try it to convince yourself.
So, for Abmelmin, you get Abm6 or Abminmaj7, Bb7susb9, Bmaj7#5, Db7#11 Eb7b13, Fm7b5, Galt. That's a lot of nomenclature, but it's very useful stuff.
It would mean, for example, that if you happen to have something cool to play over Fm7b5, it will work over all those chords, including Galt. Let's drill. F Ab B Eb. From the point of view of G7, that's b7 b9 3 and b13. Shouldn't be a surprise, since it's most of the same notes as Db13, which should ring a bell as a tritone sub for G7 as well as some notes lurking in the Galt scale.
Same for the other chords.
So, you start with Abm(add9) and then pick some chord from the melodic minor scale that you can play over and try that. I think the tonic minor, Abm6, the 7#11, the m7b5 and the alt scale might be the first four to try.
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I'm waiting for the OP's recordings.
Actually, if you read what he says, it already looks as though he's fairly confident about covering altered sounds so it should be quite interesting.
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I can imagine there are endless practice and rehearsals if you approached jazz this way. Perhaps this guy is a great jazz player, I have no idea. I watched this a couple of times and to me this is one of the reasons why people struggle to learn to play jazz (myself included before I stopped listening to things like this). Originally Posted by kris
I understand what he's saying but why anyone would approach improvising in this way is beyond me. This is like a painter who, instead of having a palate of paint colors (scales), decides to mix colors in real time as he paints to attempt to create the color he wants to put on the canvas. Why not just have the colors ready to create the feeling (sound) that you want? Understand the harmony, have scales and arpeggios at the ready, and mix and match those creatively. What am I missing?
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You're not missing anything, that guy's approach can lead to paralysis analysis (I know because I have been guilty of it). Keep things as simple as possible and practical. Originally Posted by Jazz4Four
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Wow, if you're not using altered scales like diminished and whole tone, you're prolly missing out on a lot of cool lines that can be constructed using those melodic tools. It's not just a scale. When I first started getting into jazz playing the whole tone scale just seemed too dissonant and cumbersome, but when I got into more advanced playing, I realized how many absolutely great and sophisticated sounding lines could be made with it. And diminished, what would Bireli Lagrene be without that scale, LOL? Originally Posted by Ingo Lee
One of my best teachers used to say "you gotta know the rues before you can break 'em." I tend to agree with that. You generally have to work with the altered scales longer to get comfortable with them than the "do re mi fa so la ti da" modes because they are more "active" against the root, but that "active tonality" (commonly called tensions) are where a lot of the "sophisticated" sound comes from. Personally I dislike thinking of the notes as consonant or dissonant because the word dissonant can have a negative connotation in some peoples eyes. So I started thinking of the notes as "active" = tension notes, or "inactive" equals chord tones; inactive because they don't add anything harmonically to the situation. From there, the rest of the major scale tones and tensions have a hierarchy that gets more and more active, and those really active notes sound beautiful and sophisticated in the hands of a good player. That's the key, the in the hands of a good player part. In the hands of a bad player or beginner they may not sound great because he or she hasn't worked with them enough to learn how to make them sound beautiful in context, or maybe he or she just doesn't have a good enough ear. So I would recommend taking the time to work with the altered scales and modes so you can get comfortable utilizing them, because if you do you'll discover sonic gold there you can utilize in your improv, and then add that melodic sophistication to your repertoire. Just a suggestion from a guy who's been playing jazz for a while.Last edited by AdroitMage; 06-07-2025 at 01:26 PM.
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[QUOTE=AdroitMage;1412043]
I'm sure I'm missing lots of things! But I do like and use altered tones, I just don't use altered scales per se. Maybe that's a contradiction? I guess any single line can be thought of as a scale but I try to think melodically rather than choose a scale that fits. When I get it together to post some of my playing it'll be easier to criticize my approach I hope.Wow, if you're not using altered scales like diminished and whole tone, you're prolly missing out on a lot of cool lines that can be constructed using those melodic tools.
Since my original post I have been working with some of the ideas that people here were kind enough to suggest and that's a good thing.
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Originally Posted by Ingo Lee
Start with the melodic minor scale; it is different descending vs ascending for historical melodic reasons, but jazz is interested in just the ascending structure for both directions up and down. That structure is called jazz minor and looks like this:
jazz minor
1, 2, ?3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8
Chords have inversions (same pitches in different order) and scales also have inversions (same pitches in different order) called modes. All the seven modes of a scale are enharmonic to each other - they are interchangeable. Modes are numbered by the scale degrees from the tonic of the parent scale (here jazz minor) from which the seven scale modes assign their tonics so that each has a unique numeric mode label (the modes have multiple scale names, but are still collections of the same pitches).
The modes of C melodic minor (C D Eb F G A B C) all use these same pitches.
1 - jazz minor
C D Eb F G A B C
2 - dorian ?2, phrygian ?6
D Eb F G A B C D
3 - lydian augmented
Eb F G A B C D Eb
4 - lydian dominant. acoustic scale, mixolydian ?4, overtone scale
F G A B C D Eb F
5 - aeolian dominant, mixolydian ?6, descending melodic major
G A B C D Eb F G
6 - half-diminished, locrian ?2, aeolian ?5
A B C D Eb F G A
7 - altered, super locrian, altered dominant
B C D Eb F G A B
All that looks complex, seventeen scale names for the pitches of ascending melodic minor, but the simplifying concept is that all of those are the same pitches and any of them may be interchanged with any of the others.
Since they all present the same sound harmonically, you may choose one as the reference basis from which to apply in playing jazz... which one you choose depends on how you learned to play.
The lead sheets that call for "alt" are choosing the seventh mode in reference to melodic minor. That means in a two five one of F# B E the B alt would be the seventh mode of C melodic minor (or any of the other modes in that list above).
I taught myself to play exclusively by ear. My altered playing is referenced from the fourth mode of melodic minor - the lydian dominant. When I hear the 2 5 1 above, I play F Lydian dominant. This makes sense to me because F is the tri-tone of the B chord, but is the root of F lydian dominant. It doesn't matter because it's the same pitches (and because I've never used lead sheets). I discovered lydian dominant first because of the clarity of the tri-tone mechanics to my mind; if I had learned using lead sheets I would have conceived things from another perspective. To me, altered and melodic minor are the fourth and fifth modes of lydian dominant.
On resolving, you asked about resolving into an altered. Usually the alt resolves into another chord harmony. There are tunes where you may think of a chord resolving into an altered chord (which may likely then fully resolve into another chord). For example G(9) | F#7#9 | Bm7, which may be modified to use 7ths on the bottom to enhance the stepped resolving feel, like this:
x8998x G13/F
x7877x F#7b13/E
7x777x Bm7
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