If you have to play fast to sound good, you are using speed to cover up other flaws i

[AdroitMage]

There, I said it. Maybe I should call this the 'Mancuso flaw." If you have to play fast to sound good, then you're using speed to cover up for other flaws in your playing.

That's part of why Pat Metheny says something along the lines of, "I can find lots of guitarists who can play complicated stuff, like 7#5, over 7 sharp this add that, but I don't want you in MY band unless you can also sound good playing something simple." I've heard him say that more than once, and part of that is being able to sound great playing at ballad tempos where it's appropriate to leave more space between the notes and not tear through it blazing fast like a maniac with no nuance or taste in music.

The thing is, to sound great on ballads requires using [I]other[I] melodic and technical devices besides blatant speed. I can play fast too, but truthfully, there are times when leaving space and playing with more feeling sounds better and can have more of a mesmerizing impact on the audience than just another barrage of a zillion notes. There are a whole host of other tools that musicians should be adept with that convey emotion, feeling, and a great sense of melody in their improv other than speed, and if a player is not adept at those, then he or she has a big flaw in their playing, they are missing some important tools in their bag.

Metheny is a good example to use here because, IMO, he is one of the best at sounding absolutely AMAZING at ballad tempos. The great George Benson is right up there with him in that regard, too.

There are many other important tools a good, 'complete' musician should have in their bag along with their speed and dexterity. I'm saying that because it is true.

I know this is a jazz forum, but I'm going to mention a guy named David from a band with the word pink in their name. One of the best-selling bands of all time. David is not known for being a shredder, and he even admits that early on, he realized he didn't have the great speed of other guys, so he figured out other ways to connect with the audience. Those are the kinds of tools that guys who have to play fast to sound good are missing.

[Jimmy blue note]

It's not a matter of notes per minute but how you use those notes.
There are a lot of listeners that can't HEAR the difference between content and contentless technique.

In jazz, there will always be those who hear note count and associate that with "good". That's fine. Because in an athletic perspective, the envy of those who can't justify adoration and emulation. If you can't play fast, speedy players are guitar Gods. If you can't play harmony, people who can play changes are geniuses. If you can't imagine advanced concepts in harmony, it's magic. But the more mature your knowledge is, the more human the endeavour is.

The art of music will always be forwarded by those who have a concept of how to use their resources. In all arts, the popular value of that art will always be promoted by those who worship what they see as impossibly incomprehensible.

It's a naive mistake to simply state that speed is something that has no value because it's covering up lack of content. Content can be found at any speed. Vacuity takes place any tempo.
It's up to the listener to bring themselves to a level of perception where he/she can make their own judgements on the same footing as the artist. Less than this, it's the pronouncements of prejudice.
Judging and dismissing are easy.
Understanding takes a long time.
Mastery takes a life time.

[Christian Miller]

There are players who I like and ones I don’t I’m and I’ve yet to detect how much of a pattern in how fast they play or what type of sound they use or anything else.
There are great musicians and musicians who are less great and my assessment is largely subjective. And I don’t need a great folk acoustic player to play advanced changes, and so on.

I think I tend to be drawn to players who are true to themselves in some way. Ones who have a clear identity. I really admire that. Even if I don’t really like a very distinctive player, I still have to give them a lot of respect.

And while there are people who prefer certain genres of music I’ve noticed many of the good musicians, although for myself I’ve always been an eclectic listener. Not everyone is. Some people just prefer eg. bop or metal guitarists.

OTOH I think for many players, we get our heads turned by this or that. It’s hard to know what you are and then make a style out of it haha. I think we also make the insecurities we may have about our own playing into grand narratives.

Oh so and so has no technique
Oh so and so has no taste/feel and plays too fast
I wish so and so used a straight sound
I wish so and so used a less boring sound and varied it with effects
I wish so and so played more traditional
I wish so and so played more modern

And so and so forth. I don’t think it says much about music, but it does give an insight into the psychology of the average guitar botherer.

How many guitarists does it take to change a light bulb?

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[GuyBoden]

For copying licks, I slow down fast Charlie Parker recordings by 60%, he still sounds great very slow.

Also, Charlie Parker plays great Ballads too.

[AdroitMage]

For copying licks, I slow down Charlie Parker's recordings by 60%; he still sounds great, very slow.

Also, Charlie Parker plays great Ballads too.

The thing is, if you sound great playing ballads, all you have to do is speed that stuff up, and it will sound equally great on uptempo tunes, just like what you mentioned about Charlie Parker sounding great on ballads. You can't say the same thing about the fast licks you might play on Cherokee at blazing tempos. Try and put that stuff on ballads, and it won't sound as good.

[Jimmy blue note]

I might add that I think that playing to your own limits, at any point in your development, is a necessary phase to acquiring the resources that can then be tastefully sculpted into statement and art. It's what I call "The 16 year old makeup syndrome" or "Aftershave overdose" when you discover something new and novel and you can't get enough... until you learn the effectiveness of retraint.
Sure. Learn to play fast, then learn to play accurate, then learn to create line, then learn to make your line breathe, then learn to pace your full palette of abilities to become tasteful.
But if you let your prejudices keep you from being the most you can be, you'll never have the speed when the passage calls for it. Even Bill Frisell and Bill Evans could play fast when they needed. Jim Hall too, and then he decided he could say more with space. But they never ran away from the option.
It's much easier to have the practiced ability to play fast and decide not to use it, then to find the situation where speed and articulation are needed and to fall flat on your face in that situation.

No shame in taking the Aston Martin for a Sunday drive.

[Jimmy blue note]

You can't say the same thing about the fast licks you might play on Cherokee at blazing tempos. Try and put that stuff on ballads, and it won't sound as good.

Every tempo has not only a speed of execution, but also a speed of perception. Being a complete player means not assuming they are the same thing.
Same can be said of complex harmony. The perception is greater at a lower tempo, at higher tempos, the speed of the groove or clarity of pulse becomes a greater priority.
Every tempo has its own dialect.

Listen to David Binney on this tune. It's just something he tossed up waiting between numbers in the studio, but there is nuance, balance, contrast, command of melodic line, imaginative and deadly accuracy of harmonic respect and an over compositional pace and the sound of surprise.
That's not covering ANYTHING up. It's all there if you have the ears to hear it.

[AllanAllen]

How many guitarists does it take to change a light bulb?

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That depends, does the pdf have tab?

[rpjazzguitar]

I've never noticed a player sounding good fast and bad slow.

I know some players who like to double time, but they seem to have a choice about how fast to play to sound good.

[deacon Mark]

This is not true being able to play fast is needed and being able to play slow is needed. Pat Metheny can say whatever he likes but he is not a player I listen to much. It is all about the context of the tune and the setting. Playing with feeling can be done fast or slow and there is not way to measure playing with feeling. Improvising on Giant Steps vs Round Midnight simply are 2 different animals to slay. Great players manage just fine.

[Django Johnson]

Yeah this guy played fast to cover up the fact that only two of the fingers on his left hand functioned properly.

[SOLR]

Mancuso's lines are extremely melodic and he's certainly not covering up any "Flaws" ...

P.Grasso plays very fast and has impeccable bop vocab even when slowed down by 75%!

Pat Martino played fast too, not covering anything I could spot.

Hey, Pat Metheny also plays fast and very fast with complex lines at times.

The Op has fabricated a story where there was none by posting under a click bait title and then talking about Metheny's comment on complex chords.

Lame
S

[pamosmusic]

That depends, does the pdf have tab?

devastating

[Hep To The Jive]

I take the Mancuso Flaw.

[princeplanet]

I've never noticed a player sounding good fast and bad slow.

...

Well I certainly have (me for one), but if you're talking about pros, then yeah, far less likely.

[digger]

I can play fast too, but truthfully, there are times when leaving space and playing with more feeling sounds better and can have more of a mesmerizing impact on the audience than just another barrage of a zillion notes.

Be great to hear an example of your mesmerising playing, Adroit.

[AlteredDave]

Ever noticed how "fast" players usually never complain about "slow" players?
It's always the later who need to be crying out loud that their approach to music is better*.

If you need to bash another musician's own form of expression to validate your approach, you're just covering up for your own flaws which are lack of musical-ear maturity and (most likely) lack of practice.

*Certainly space, tone and thoughtful note choices are very important for "feeling" but slackers who never put the hours on their instrument always like to hide their technical shortcomings behind this aspect and deny the importance of balance between other tools of musical expression.

[DonEsteban]

P.M.: "I can find lots of guitarists who can play complicated stuff, like 7#5, over 7 sharp this add that, but I don't want you in MY band unless you can also sound good playing something simple."

I have a hard time finding the words "speed" or "tempo" in there...

[GuyBoden]

Charlie Parker is just playing 'Ping Pong', because that's how he hears and feels it.

[pamosmusic]

Funny thing about Pat is that when I was younger, I didn’t really care for him because I thought he was a little notey.

Say la vee.

[ragman1]

If you have to play fast to sound good, you are using speed to cover up other flaws !

Quite right. I used to know someone like that. He'd play in time in the usual way then he'd sort of twitch, visibly, and start zooming off all over the place. It was doubtless impressive the first time but then I realised it was because he'd run out of ideas at the slower tempo.

Mind you, there are people who can't play fast to save their life, their brains just can't cope with it. Like a latency problem.

[Jimmy blue note]

If you have to play fast to sound good, then you're using speed to cover up for other flaws in your playing.
.

I can't play fast OR slow. So I don't play anything at all. I'm thinking: "They'll think I'm not covering up not being able to play fast by playing slow and vice versa."
I practice this way for hours. I sit in silence. Nothing to cover up if there's nothing there to begin with.
I'm looking for my audience; people with the good taste to recognize something real.

[John A.]

Ever noticed how "fast" players usually never complain about "slow" players?
It's always the later who need to be crying out loud that their approach to music is better*.

I don't think that's entirely the case, but sour grapes from the speedy is probably less common than from the slower.

If you need to bash another musician's own form of expression to validate your approach, you're just covering up for your own flaws which are lack of musical-ear maturity and (most likely) lack of practice.

Or are just a trolling buffoon whose musical skills will likely never be put on display.

*Certainly space, tone and thoughtful note choices are very important for "feeling" but slackers who never put the hours on their instrument always like to hide their technical shortcomings behind this aspect and deny the importance of balance between other tools of musical expression.

I think there are also people who are far from being slackers but just don't quite get what other aesthetics are about and/or dismiss music that involves a lot of technique as lacking feeling because they don't feel it and give more weight to their own judgment than they should. Some of us grow out of that, some of us don't.

[Average Joe]

Some players hear more musical posibilities at certain tempos than others. It's temperament rather than flaw imho. Johnny Hodges or Ben Webster seemed to thrive on ballads. Bird could play them too, but he seemed more enarmoured with up tempo than them. Mike Stern seem to hear fast far more than especially late Jim Hall. Is one better than the other, or is it just a richness to have all the personalities out there in the music.

Btw if you have ever been a card carrying member of the Blues Police, or know people like that, you are well acquainted with the "but this guy plays with feeling, maaan" trope. It's all about what you are able to hear - there was time I couldn't hear Giant Steps era Coltrane, or Holdsworth, or Brecker, or, or, or. It's not about the quality of the music

[spencer096]

Ever noticed how "fast" players usually never complain about "slow" players?
It's always the later who need to be crying out loud that their approach to music is better*.

golfer bubba watson has a great quote that fits this perfectly..."anyone can win a tournament, not everyone can hit it long." anyone can play music, not everyone can blaze.

excessive reliance on speed absolutely is an issue with some musicians...but ive never understood why a conscious avoidance of speed is inherently considered a virtue.