If you have to play fast to sound good, you are using speed to cover up other flaws i

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

If you have to play fast to sound good, you are using speed to cover up other flaws !

Quite right. I used to know someone like that. He'd play in time in the usual way then he'd sort of twitch, visibly, and start zooming off all over the place. It was doubtless impressive the first time but then I realised it was because he'd run out of ideas at the slower tempo.

Absolutely! I'm so tired of listening to stuff like this - one pass at the head, then he's off and running with no idea what he's playing. From 30 seconds in, it's just mindless, purposeless note blowing.....

I went to college in the Boston area in the early 1960s, and by my senior year I was able to put together a quartet with really fine players. Along with Larry Schneider on tenor (yes, THE Larry Schneider who went on to play with Thad and Mel, Horace Silver, John Abercrombie, Bill Evans etc) and Peter Coe on drums, we had a bass player who was a full time degree student at Berklee majoring in tuba and bass. I was lucky enough to get to go with him to some of his lectures. I thought that Herb Pomeroy was by far the most influential teacher I'd ever encountered. Just sitting in on a few lectures taught me some of the most valuable things I ever learned, and I'm still trying to live up to the standard he set.

Pomeroy gave a great lecture on what he called the "time - intensity curve", which he applied to tunes, solos etc. He'd go to the blackboard and set up a simple X-Y graph with time on the horizontal axis and intensity on the vertical. Then he'd talk about different ways to build intensity and place it within a tune. What I got out of this was that you can approach intensity however you wish - speed, volume, note meter, etc, as long as it's part of a structure that makes sense. You can start out low in the T-I curve and build gradually throughout the tune. You can ramp it up in steps, peak near the middle and unwind it toward the end, move up progresively from peak to higher peak, etc. But you want to do this in such a way that you're building a song or a solo that makes sense to the listener and sounds right. Here are examples of these:

What you shouldn't do is play with a random, erratic, nonsensical T-I curve that makes no sense at all and sounds like a fork in a garbage disposal....like this:


Speed, like volume, note meter etc, is a valuable tool for expression. Many lines just sound better fast than slow. Many great players not known for their speed can blow notes with the best of them. But they choose not to do so unless it's the right notes at the right place at the right time in the right tune....for them within their chosen T-I curve. If your time-intensity curve is logical, have at it and most of us will probably like it. But if it looks like your EKG, you probably don't know what you're doing. Here's one of my all time favorite solos. It's Frank Strozier's intro to Don Ellis's big band version of Parker's KC Blues on the album Autumn. Ya got speed, long slow notes, and everything in between. This piece has been one of my inspirations since the first time I heard it:

Anybody who thinks that Strozier is just blowing notes because he's out of ideas has a screw loose somewhere!

[Peter C]

What I got out of this was that you can approach intensity however you wish - speed, volume, note meter, etc, as long as it's part of a structure that makes sense.

There it is, right on the button.

[Cunamara]

Vacuity takes place any tempo.

Uh-oh.

[Mick-7]

Funny thing about Pat is that when I was younger, I didn’t really care for him because I thought he was a little notey.

Say la vee.

It seems to me that Pat's post brain trauma playing was less mechanical than his pre-trauma playing, but I'm not familiar enough with his entire catalogue to be sure about that.

[rpjazzguitar]

Pomeroy..!

Couldn't agree more that a solo should have what I'll call "arc". Maybe it should be plural, since there's more than one dimension to the idea, e.g. tone vs speed.

It's much easier, to me at least, when the band is sensitive to the soloist's lead. I guess there's a way to do it while the band is more invariant, but I think it works way better when there are appropriate variations in volume, comp-density, solo-density, tonal intensity etc etc.

I don't know that I could graph an arc that couldn't possibly work in the right hands.

One key is to avoid blind alleys. So, if I want to build intensity by increasing speed, I'd better start out slow enough to make that work.

As far as the idea that somebody will sound great fast and bad slow, I still can't think of anybody like that.

[John A.]

It seems to me that Pat's post brain trauma playing was less mechanical than his pre-trauma playing, but I'm not familiar enough with his entire catalogue to be sure about that.

I thought Pamosmusic was referring to Metheny there, but maybe it was Martino ...

Anyway, I saw Martino many times post brain trauma, including one of his first performances (which wasn't all that good). I would say it took a few years, but eventually he got to the point where his playing was as good as it was before. It was different, but in the way you might expect to evolve. In that first couple of years, though, he relied a lot on a bag of licks and didn't have the fluidity that he gained later. The last couple of times I saw him (early 2000's) were incredible, transcendent performances.

[John A.]

Yes, the difference I heard was that his phrasing was more expressive, less formulaic than in his younger years. Would you agree?

I’m not entirely sure what you mean by that, so I can’t really say whether I agree.

[pamosmusic]

I thought Pamosmusic was referring to Metheny there, but maybe it was Martino ...

Anyway, I saw Martino many times post brain trauma, including one of his first performances (which wasn't all that good). I would say it took a few years, but eventually he got to the point where his playing was as good as it was before. It was different, but in the way you might expect to evolve. In that first couple of years, though, he relied a lot on a bag of licks and didn't have the fluidity that he gained later. The last couple of times I saw him (early 2000's) were incredible, transcendent performances.

Yeah I was referring to Metheny.

I probably would've said the same thing about Martino though, too.

I've come around to Martino though (and Metheny). With Martino, seeing him live really helped. He came through the club where I worked maybe twice a year. I saw him maybe three or four times in the last couple years before COVID shut us down. Once only a few weeks before if memory serves, which must've been one of the last handful of performances he gave before he passed. Absolutely killer.

Can't say I go back to most of his stuff to listen to terribly often -- but I listen to El Hombre and Live at Yoshi's enough to make up for it.

[Mick-7]

I’m not entirely sure what you mean by that, so I can’t really say whether I agree.

As I said, his playing became more expressive. His picking and phrasing was less regimented when he was older (post brain trauma). When he was young he picked just about every note and rarely if ever bent notes.

[sgcim]

Absolutely! I'm so tired of listening to stuff like this - one pass at the head, then he's off and running with no idea what he's playing. From 30 seconds in, it's just mindless, purposeless note blowing.....

I went to college in the Boston area in the early 1960s, and by my senior year I was able to put together a quartet with really fine players. Along with Larry Schneider on tenor (yes, THE Larry Schneider who went on to play with Thad and Mel, Horace Silver, John Abercrombie, Bill Evans etc) and Peter Coe on drums, we had a bass player who was a full time degree student at Berklee majoring in tuba and bass. I was lucky enough to get to go with him to some of his lectures. I thought that Herb Pomeroy was by far the most influential teacher I'd ever encountered. Just sitting in on a few lectures taught me some of the most valuable things I ever learned, and I'm still trying to live up to the standard he set.

Pomeroy gave a great lecture on what he called the "time - intensity curve", which he applied to tunes, solos etc. He'd go to the blackboard and set up a simple X-Y graph with time on the horizontal axis and intensity on the vertical. Then he'd talk about different ways to build intensity and place it within a tune. What I got out of this was that you can approach intensity however you wish - speed, volume, note meter, etc, as long as it's part of a structure that makes sense. You can start out low in the T-I curve and build gradually throughout the tune. You can ramp it up in steps, peak near the middle and unwind it toward the end, move up progresively from peak to higher peak, etc. But you want to do this in such a way that you're building a song or a solo that makes sense to the listener and sounds right. Here are examples of these:

What you shouldn't do is play with a random, erratic, nonsensical T-I curve that makes no sense at all and sounds like a fork in a garbage disposal....like this:


Speed, like volume, note meter etc, is a valuable tool for expression. Many lines just sound better fast than slow. Many great players not known for their speed can blow notes with the best of them. But they choose not to do so unless it's the right notes at the right place at the right time in the right tune....for them within their chosen T-I curve. If your time-intensity curve is logical, have at it and most of us will probably like it. But if it looks like your EKG, you probably don't know what you're doing. Here's one of my all time favorite solos. It's Frank Strozier's intro to Don Ellis's big band version of Parker's KC Blues on the album Autumn. Ya got speed, long slow notes, and everything in between. This piece has been one of my inspirations since the first time I heard it:

Anybody who thinks that Strozier is just blowing notes because he's out of ideas has a screw loose somewhere!

I have all of Frank's albums, and dimwits are the reason why he quit the jazz scene. Many years ago,
when we went to see him play in Rye NY at a club, we went up to him and told him we have all his records , and love his playing.
He looked at us and said, "You two guys are musicians, right?"
We told him we were, and the look he gave us said all we needed to know about being a jazz musician.
I've written at least four big band charts based on his work.

[djg]

As I said, his playing became more expressive. His picking and phrasing was less regimented when he was older (post brain trauma). When he was young he picked just about every note and rarely if ever bent notes.

when you study his early recordings with w jackson, you'll find that the opposite is actually the case. his playing got more formalized in the later phase of his career. but there was never a phase when he picked almost every note. that is a common misconception about pats playing.

[supersoul]

I have all of Frank's albums, and dimwits are the reason why he quit the jazz scene. Many years ago,
when we went to see him play in Rye NY at a club, we went up to him and told him we have all his records , and love his playing.
He looked at us and said, "You two guys are musicians, right?"
We told him we were, and the look he gave us said all we needed to know about being a jazz musician.
I've written at least four big band charts based on his work.

What is the Frank Strozier story in a nutshell?
His name keeps popping up, and I even have an album of his called "The Fantastic Frank Strozier" which is, um, fantastic w/Booker Little and the Wynton Kelly, Paul Chambers, Jimmy Cobb rhythm section. Wikipedia doesn't say too much and he only made a couple of albums under his own name.

[grahambop]

What is the Frank Strozier story in a nutshell?
His name keeps popping up, and I even have an album of his called "The Fantastic Frank Strozier" which is, um, fantastic w/Booker Little and the Wynton Kelly, Paul Chambers, Jimmy Cobb rhythm section. Wikipedia doesn't say too much and he only made a couple of albums under his own name.

I’ve got that album too but don’t know much about him. (Just remembered I’ve also got him on the George Coleman octet album ‘Big George’).

I found this which has some details about him:

https://attictoys.com/frank-strozier/

[John A.]

As I said, his playing became more expressive. His picking and phrasing was less regimented when he was older (post brain trauma). When he was young he picked just about every note and rarely if ever bent notes.

No, I don’t think I agree with that. His pre-surgery playing is full of bends, sweeps, slurs, etc. I haven’t compared pre to post with that specific aspect of his playing in mind though, so I’ll hedge it a little.

[John A.]

Yeah I was referring to Metheny.

I probably would've said the same thing about Martino though, too.

I've come around to Martino though (and Metheny). With Martino, seeing him live really helped. He came through the club where I worked maybe twice a year. I saw him maybe three or four times in the last couple years before COVID shut us down. Once only a few weeks before if memory serves, which must've been one of the last handful of performances he gave before he passed. Absolutely killer.

Can't say I go back to most of his stuff to listen to terribly often -- but I listen to El Hombre and Live at Yoshi's enough to make up for it.

If you haven’t already, check out East! and Exit. The way he and Gil Goldstein mesh on Exit is extraordinary.

[Mick-7]

when you study his early recordings with w jackson, you'll find that the opposite is actually the case. his playing got more formalized in the later phase of his career. but there was never a phase when he picked almost every note. that is a common misconception about pats playing.

o.k., I have not even heard most of his records and so was uncertain about my conclusion.... can you explain what you mean by "more formalized"? What changed?

[Mick-7]

Yeah I was referring to Metheny.

I probably would've said the same thing about Martino though, too.

Metheny definitely became more musically verbose with age, e.g., his playing on Bright Size Life is sparse compared to his later recordings.

[sgcim]

I’ve got that album too but don’t know much about him. (Just remembered I’ve also got him on the George Coleman octet album ‘Big George’).

I found this which has some details about him:

https://attictoys.com/frank-strozier/

Hey Graham, I didn't want to participate in such an idiotic thread, but when NSHSI posted the FS solo, I felt like I had to join in. That link you posted is wrong about FS sounding like Lee Konitz, the exact opposite actually. They're really not known for their jazz output, just obscure records.
I've been in touch online with Dick Morrissey's son for a while, and I mentioned that I just finished a bio of Stan Tracey called "The Godfather of British Jazz", written by his son, Clark Tracey, the drummer.
I thought it was strange that DM wasn't even in the index. We both tracked down a great Harry South big band record that ST and DM both played on.called "Presenting the harry South Big band".

But be careful, it's got guys like Gordon Beck, Tubbs, DM, Ronnie Scott, Phil Seaman, and a lot of other great players who might corrupt you, because they "try to sound good by playing too fast"!

[John A.]

Metheny definitely became more musically verbose with age, e.g., his playing on Bright Size Life is sparse compared to his later recordings.

To a man with a hammer …

[charlieparker]

Ever noticed how "fast" players usually never complain about "slow" players?
It's always the later who need to be crying out loud that their approach to music is better*.

I disagree with this. I know plenty of fast players who look down on slow players, not that I agree with either sentiment but different people like different things and sometimes judge players through that lens. I would love to be able to play fast and "unmusical" but unfortunately I am a sloth on the guitar.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

To a man with a hammer …

…every string looks like a piano string ?

[Cunamara]

It seems to me that Pat's post brain trauma playing was less mechanical than his pre-trauma playing, but I'm not familiar enough with his entire catalogue to be sure about that.

Listen to PM's first recording as a leader, El Hombre. Nothing mechanical at all to my ears.

[Christian Miller]

Metheny definitely became more musically verbose with age, e.g., his playing on Bright Size Life is sparse compared to his later recordings.

The impression I get is that his chops developed. Metheny's technique evolved quite a bit through his career. His early playing is more legato/slurred than his later stuff.

Although he is always a bit down on BSL. He seems to feel that ECM was cramping his style with the "one day to record and one day to mix thing", and felt that the record didn't represent the live sound of the trio which was AFAIK a lot more fiery (and probably notey).

As BSL is far and away my favourite Pat record, because of its 'guys in a room' vibe, which of course was always Manfred Eicher's thing. Pat does seem to view records and live performance from a composition and production perspective overall. Live, what I've heard through the grapevine is that Pat takes an active hand in telling his band members how their solos should be and gives feedback on this after shows. I don't think that's a specific note by note thing - it's not prog rock exactly - but he has a very specific idea of how the overall show will unfold.

[supersoul]

I didn't want to participate in such an idiotic thread, but when NSHSI posted the FS solo, I felt like I had to join in.

It's turned out to be not such a bad thread after all. For one thing, it's solved a question that I've had for a long time, which is the origin of "502 Blues (Drinkin' and Driving)" by Jimmy Rowles. It's on Wayne Shorter's album Adam's Apple; I've always liked it but could never find any other versions.
I went down a Frank Strozier rabbit hole yesterday and came across the Shelley Manne album Perk Up, which also has the tune, except it's just named "Drinkin' and Drivin'". The arrangements are much different.
The Wayne album was recorded in '66, while the Shelley Manne album was recorded in '67 but didn't come out until '76.

[Tal_175]

Somethings don't sound right when played slow but provide a unique effect above certain tempos. For example chromatic chord phrases played using parallel voicings. It's a big band arrangement technique, especially effective with diminished voicings. It wouldn't sound good in slow, sustained tempos though. There is a fine line between dissonance and duds. Our ears process music within temporal contexts. If you hold a note for longer than a certain duration, you guide the listener to a new context. It's a part of musical expression.