Alt Dom - how long?

[princeplanet]

If a tune has a Dom chord for a 2 bar duration, is there ever a time where you think it's OK to play an altered sub (either in comping or soloing) for the entire 2 bar length? Or would you only introduce "alterations" at the start of the 2nd bar or later? And if the duration is one bar, do you usually alter it from the start? Or half way in?

Not sure there is a right or wrong way, just different preferences, however depending on handling, some altered ideas don't always seem to work if they go on for too long. Thoughts?

[Al Haig]

Organize it for the effect you want. Although you can theorize stuff up. Chris often does that in class. But I would say try to hear up an idea, or at least figure out what effect you want sound wise. There are endless ways to mess around with 2 bars of a dominant chord, I wouldn't make it overly formulaic.

[garybaldy]

This made me think of 4 bars per dom chord in say Sweet Georgia Brown. What would you do there? Thanks

[ragman1]

If a tune has a Dom chord for a 2 bar duration, is there ever a time where you think it's OK to play an altered sub (either in comping or soloing) for the entire 2 bar length? Or would you only introduce "alterations" at the start of the 2nd bar or later? And if the duration is one bar, do you usually alter it from the start? Or half way in?

Not sure there is a right or wrong way, just different preferences, however depending on handling, some altered ideas don't always seem to work if they go on for too long. Thoughts?

Which tune? Context is absolutely key. Abstract answers aren't reliable.

[pamosmusic]

If it resolves normally then any time I wants to

[princeplanet]

So, resolving normally at medium tempo. Are you a "get increasingly spicy by the end" kinda guy, or "pull out all stops from the get go" kind?

Oh, and does it make a difference for you whether the resolving tonic is major or minor ?

[princeplanet]

This made me think of 4 bars per dom chord in say Sweet Georgia Brown. What would you do there? Thanks

That would be pretty weird to play alt over all 4 bars!

[garybaldy]

That would be pretty weird to play alt over all 4 bars!

Yes. I would attempt it just over the 4th bar.

[ragman1]

Most alt chords resolve to their I chord, major or minor. But not always, there are exceptions like 7b9 or 7b5/7#11 chords, etc.

I repeat, name a tune. The answer depends on the context, context, context.

[grahambop]

I would probably do it for a couple of bars at a time on something like the bridge of rhythm changes. But probably not for the whole bridge, that might sound a bit weird.

[Christian Miller]

If a tune has a Dom chord for a 2 bar duration, is there ever a time where you think it's OK to play an altered sub (either in comping or soloing) for the entire 2 bar length? Or would you only introduce "alterations" at the start of the 2nd bar or later? And if the duration is one bar, do you usually alter it from the start? Or half way in?

Not sure there is a right or wrong way, just different preferences, however depending on handling, some altered ideas don't always seem to work if they go on for too long. Thoughts?

If I was playing on a whole tone or dominant diminished sound -absolutely, and there’s loads of examples of the greats doing this. Altered scale? Perhaps less so. It’s weirdly non descript as a sound, it’s sort of a combination of the whole tone and diminished.

The 7b5-dim is a fun one.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[pamosmusic]

If I was playing on a whole tone or dominant diminished sound -absolutely, and there’s loads of examples of the greats doing this. Altered scale? Perhaps less so. It’s weirdly non descript as a sound, it’s sort of a combination of the whole tone and diminished.

The 7b5-dim is a fun one.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Oh good point … I took the question as sort of generally altered, not as Altered Scale.

[pamosmusic]

So, resolving normally at medium tempo. Are you a "get increasingly spicy by the end" kinda guy, or "pull out all stops from the get go" kind?

I don’t know. Probably the latter but I’m usually thinking more about getting where I’m going than I am about some specific color on the chord.

Oh, and does it make a difference for you whether the resolving tonic is major or minor ?

Probably not. Major can get the kitchen sink … some of the straight up dominant scale and 9#11 sounds I’m maybe less likely to use going to minor. But if we’re talking altered specifically to be a tritone sub then no, I’ll use it going to whatever.

[Tal_175]

If the tune is minor, V7b9#5 isn't altered. It's precisely unaltered in fact with respect to the tonality. The context matters here.

[ragman1]

If a tune has a Dom chord for a 2 bar duration, is there ever a time where you think it's OK to play an altered sub (either in comping or soloing) for the entire 2 bar length? Or would you only introduce "alterations" at the start of the 2nd bar or later? And if the duration is one bar, do you usually alter it from the start? Or half way in?

Not sure there is a right or wrong way, just different preferences, however depending on handling, some altered ideas don't always seem to work if they go on for too long. Thoughts?

No thoughts. Try it and see. If it sounds good, it is.

Your OP was about alt doms specifically. The Rhythm Changes bridge has no altered doms except maybe the last one.

The bridge of Stella begins with an alt dom:

G7+ - % - Cm7 - %
Ab7 - % - BbM7 - %

So play with that. Then realise your answer won't necessarily fit every tune. That's why context matters. So it's up to you.

[pamosmusic]

No thoughts. Try it and see. If it sounds good, it is.

Your OP was about alt doms specifically. The Rhythm Changes bridge has no altered doms except maybe the last one.

The bridge of Stella begins with an alt dom:

G7+ - % - Cm7 - %
Ab7 - % - BbM7 - %

So play with that. Then realise your answer won't necessarily fit every tune. That's why context matters. So it's up to you.

Hes asking if you would substitute so sort of more dissonant dominant chord over something like rhythm changes where they aren’t necessarily written that way.

[wolflen]

As Rag has stated.."Context..!"..are you experimenting by yourself..then fine..with others..perhaps not.

Where would the alt chord go to next .. it should make some harmonic sense..as alt doms can imply other partial chord fragments in their construction..

G7#5b9 = Db9=Abmi6=Fmi7b5

Just a strong suggestion withe this type of stuff.."Know what your doing!"

[grahambop]

A good example of the rhythm changes bridge is the Pat Martino version of Oleo, with Joey de Francesco (on Live at Yoshi’s, also there is some youtube video of them doing it), where they treat the whole bridge as descending altered chords.

[Christian Miller]

I mean if you are in the Kenny Kirkland thing any chord can be an altered dominant


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Christian Miller]

If the tune is minor, V7b9#5 isn't altered. It's precisely unaltered in fact with respect to the tonality. The context matters here.

Even a bVIm(maj7) chord is found within in the harmonic minor scale.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[BreckerFan]

Does it sound good?

Yes -> you could do it

No - > probably don't do it

[grahambop]

I mean if you are in the Kenny Kirkland thing any chord can be an altered dominant


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

yes that is a cool Adam Rogers thing too, I recently got his masterclass videos and he demonstrates playing the D altered scale over a Dm chord as one of his devices for playing ‘outside’ the chord.

[rpjazzguitar]

This would be an easier issue to address if we were talking about a specific tune.

Sweet Georgia Brown was mentioned.

Starts with 2 bars of E7.

First choice to make is whether you're going to play one voicing for 8 beats or if you're going to move around. And, either way, which voicing(s) are you going to play?

If you decide to stay on one voicing, will it sound good to alter it? How? And, to whom is it going to sound good? Does the group go for more outside sounds? Will the vocalist or soloist appreciate hearing, say, an E7#9 instead of E7?

Lots of choices to submit to the ear test. Which ones sound good in context?

On average, my inclination is to keep the voices moving and not to linger on anything that sounds too dissonant. Others may be better at managing dissonance and don't have to worry so much about it.

If I was the soloist, I wouldn't want to be fed a constant diet of dissonant sounding chords on Sweet Georgia Brown.

And, should I decide to include some alterations in my solo lines that doesn't mean I want to hear them in the comping. If I'm doing, say, a tritone sub on a dominant, that could sound pretty good against the unaltered chord. But, if the comping goes to the same tritone, I'll sound vanilla, and I don't mean that in a good way. Alterations in the comping have to respect the soloist and there's no general prescription for how to do that.

[ragman1]

Hes asking if you would substitute so sort of more dissonant dominant chord over something like rhythm changes where they aren’t necessarily written that way.

Not in his original post he didn't.

His last post was #6 before RC was even mentioned.

He doesn't know what he's doing. And confining it to the RC bridge isn't going to help him. Again, because there's no one-size-fits-all answer, especially when it comes to Rhythm Changes.

[Christian Miller]

yes that is a cool Adam Rogers thing too, I recently got his masterclass videos and he demonstrates playing the D altered scale over a Dm chord as one of his devices for playing ‘outside’ the chord.

I think going back further Kenny Barron … although something tells me it goes back further than that


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk