Alt Dom - how long?

[pamosmusic]

Not in his original post he didn't.

His last post was #6 before RC was even mentioned.

He doesn't know what he's doing. And confining it to the RC bridge isn't going to help him. Again, because there's no one-size-fits-all answer, especially when it comes to Rhythm Changes.

Something like rhythm changes.

He’s asking if we will substitute a dissonant dominant chord over a regular one.

Sure, context I guess. But also this just doesn’t seem like a super complicated question?

[ragman1]

It's not complicated if he sits down and plays it. And one can certainly play an altered line over a non-altered chord, why not?

[pauln]

If a tune has a Dom chord for a 2 bar duration, is there ever a time where you think it's OK to play an altered sub (either in comping or soloing) for the entire 2 bar length? Or would you only introduce "alterations" at the start of the 2nd bar or later? And if the duration is one bar, do you usually alter it from the start? Or half way in?

Not sure there is a right or wrong way, just different preferences, however depending on handling, some altered ideas don't always seem to work if they go on for too long. Thoughts?

When you qualify the question "is there ever a time?" the strict answer is "yes" to all your instances and the many other initiation/placement permutations. Someone somewhere has done it successfully by making it sound good. Only each of us can answer the question of whether we can do it in some contexts.

Suggestively, practicing might include, among other things (learn tunes et al), exploring taking a line over a harmony context that does not sound good and figuring out how to make it sound good. Sounds like you're already exploring this.

[princeplanet]

Yeah, just to clarify, I'm not really asking "how" to apply subs or alts to Doms, or even "where" (although I'll concede my OP probably infers this?) as a rule or anything, but I was more interested in the member's own preferences. Sometimes I see a lot of responses that run contrary to my own preferences, and it might drive me to re-evaluate. FOMO

Like the example of chaining alts in the RC bridge, I'm gonna have to try that one!

[princeplanet]

If the tune is minor, V7b9#5 isn't altered. It's precisely unaltered in fact with respect to the tonality. The context matters here.

Of course, but E7alt also contains A# / Bb which is not found in the key of Am. As you know, there are various other (common?) ways to turn up the dissonance (9, 13, etc) when resolving to various Minor tonics, but I was just curious to know if the peeps here feel that resolving to minor can handle (in their opinion) more or less dissonance, for longer or not.

[buduranus2]

Like the example of chaining alts in the RC bridge, I'm gonna have to try that one!

Seems like descending 9th chords would provide alternating inside/outside possibilities.

[ragman1]

I was more interested in the member's own preferences. Sometimes I see a lot of responses that run contrary to my own preferences, and it might drive me to re-evaluate

But it's the same answer, it depends on the context. Really, it does :-)

[grahambop]

I think going back further Kenny Barron … although something tells me it goes back further than that


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probably Herbie Hancock, it’s the sort of thing he would do I think.

[PMB]

An intro is most common place for an altered chord to be extended over 2 bars or more. Here's the first page of a recent trio chart for the standard Will You Still be Mine where I created a vamp over the figure in bars 13-14:

[princeplanet]

Seems like descending 9th chords would provide alternating inside/outside possibilities.

How do you mean?

[princeplanet]

An intro is most common place for an altered chord to be extended over 2 bars or more. Here's the first page of a recent trio chart for the standard Will You Still be Mine where I created a vamp over the figure in bars 13-14:

Cool, what tempo would you play this at?

[PMB]

Cool, what tempo would you play this at?

The arrangement was made for my daughter and she really flies through it. However, the intro would still work at a slow tempo.

[ragman1]

Cool, what tempo would you play this at?

At last, a tune.

Well, a moment's googling would have told you. It's a fast tune. The intro is probably just chord sounds or punches but the same two bars at the end of the A section probably take about a second or so in real time. Not something you need to wonder about in terms of duration and all that.

So to repeat, that's why context matters.

[Reg]

Yea... most jazz players don't just play single chords, when comping or soloing.

They play Chord patterns that reflect the tune, the style, the context etc... The Musical Reference.

You create Relationships with that Reference and Develop those Relationships.

The physical organization of the 2 bars should be rhythmically organized to reflect, with standard strong weak patterns... and harmonically or melodically imply... again the context and tune and where you or the ensemble might want to go when playing the tune.

[Reg]

just looking at PBM's arrangement on WYSBM..

I would probably play...
G-7b5 for the C7b9 1st time

change the rhythm pattern on 2nd x to down beats on beats 1 and 2... for 1st C7#9 and up octave voicing for for the G-7b5 (sub for C7b9), the back to 1stpattern for 3rd time. And your off

Obviously... the tune would then reflect the rhythmic and harmonic patterns set up by intro.

Not just notated changes.

[RJVB]

I've been seeing this thread title and thinking about the alt. usenet hierarchy ^^

[PMB]

just looking at PBM's arrangement on WYSBM..

I would probably play...
G-7b5 for the C7b9 1st time

change the rhythm pattern on 2nd x to down beats on beats 1 and 2... for 1st C7#9 and up octave voicing for for the G-7b5 (sub for C7b9), the back to 1stpattern for 3rd time. And your off

Obviously... the tune would then reflect the rhythmic and harmonic patterns set up by intro.

Not just notated changes.

Yes, your example would work fine as well, Reg but I was intentionally going for a more pronounced and prolonged tension of alternating altered dominants rather than ii-Vs in this case.

If you're looking for a standard tune with a prolonged altered dominant that finally resolves, how about the A section of 'Caravan'?

[Christian Miller]

I've never been very happy on the A section of Caravan haha

Although I notice many of the greats seem to often just treat that C7 as a standard dominant and just play alt in the last bar. Wes for instance.

This is a good one to listen to compare approaches from a classic jazz perspective. What I take away is that there's a lot of individuality and variety in the way that static chord is handled.

Bop players tend to just look at the basic chord and extend as they like regardless. Modern players tend to be more conditioned to think about the chord scale/extended harmony implied by the melody.

In terms of more modern jazz approaches you obviously also have the whole array of scale patterns and outside approaches. But these musicians are 'more transparent' often. You can map what they are doing quite often to this or that teacher and the info is all out there in books and masterclasses.

There's of course no right or wrong for any of this. Different players approach this stuff differently. It's fun to listen to what people do.

[ragman1]

Most versions have it as C7b9. That makes the go-to notes F harmonic. But you can dress that up with all sort of fun things.

This is one of the best versions. Listen to Monk's rhythm, solid as a rock, seriously impressive.

[pamosmusic]

Most versions have it as C7b9. That makes the go-to notes F harmonic. But you can dress that up with all sort of fun things.

This is one of the best versions. Listen to Monk's rhythm, solid as a rock, seriously impressive.

Yeah that's a great video - thanks for sharing. Also he does this for the last track on his Ellington album. Kind of a weird concept, but one of my favorite Monk albums. So much fun to hear him play other people's music.

[Reg]

Yes, your example would work fine as well, Reg but I was intentionally going for a more pronounced and prolonged tension of alternating altered dominants rather than ii-Vs in this case.

If you're looking for a standard tune with a prolonged altered dominant that finally resolves, how about the A section of 'Caravan'?

Yea thanks. Like Horace tunes, maybe Barbara or even Serenade to a Soul Sister.

Even Caravan... I still generally work through Chord Patterns, just Altered Chord Patterns.

Are you mixing what Altered Doms imply harmonically, or what would be the organization. Generally when Will you still be mine....gets called, usually in Eb, but F is cool, anyway The last 4 bars of "A" or a vamp of the chromatic II Vs... altered is intro. I liked your Intro with the C7#9 to C7b9, key of F...

It seems that it can get muddy, (use of extended Alt Doms), with out making harmonic choices as to the references and organization of the space.

But that's probable just personal hangups...LOL

[PMB]

Yea thanks. Like Horace tunes, maybe Barbara or even Serenade to a Soul Sister.

Even Caravan... I still generally work through Chord Patterns, just Altered Chord Patterns.

Are you mixing what Altered Doms imply harmonically, or what would be the organization. Generally when Will you still be mine....gets called, usually in Eb, but F is cool, anyway The last 4 bars of "A" or a vamp of the chromatic II Vs... altered is intro. I liked your Intro with the C7#9 to C7b9, key of F...

It seems that it can get muddy, (use of extended Alt Doms), with out making harmonic choices as to the references and organization of the space.

But that's probable just personal hangups...LOL

The arrangement is in F as it's my daughter's key. She normally sings it in trio format, guitar or piano and bass so there's freedom to imply harmonic references or not. It's really only the intro and a descending 4ths figure I employed in the outro that make it an 'arrangement'.

[AdroitMage]

To the OP, first of all, it depends on context, so knowing the specific tune you're talking about matters. What sounds good in one context may not be in another context, even over the same cadence.

After that, the correct answer is: whatever sounds good. There are a zillion ways you could do it. Like someone said, "don't be over formulaic about that." You've actually got to listen. Try it a bunch of different ways and listen to how they sound, then keep the ones you like. Also transcribing other great players playing the same tune is important.