Devices over a jazz blues

[Gladders]

I've been taught that when improvising over standards, there are ways to choose your devices. I'm looking at Empathy, a jazz blues by Duke Pearson. Over the I chord (Cm6) I'd use either Ebmaj, Abmaj or Cm pentatonic. Over the non-resolving v (G7alt) I'd use the fifth as a guide and go to Db jazz minor or diminished. The resolving v chord is up half a step, so Ab jazz minor or diminished over G7 alt.

All that works well for a standard like Girl From Ipanema or Autumn Leaves, but is there a better approach for a blues tune?

Any opinions gratefully received.

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[pamosmusic]

I've been taught that when improvising over standards, there are ways to choose your devices. I'm looking at Empathy, a jazz blues by Duke Pearson. Over the I chord (Cm6) I'd use either Ebmaj, Abmaj or Cm pentatonic.

The first thing I’d say is that actually none of those would be great choices over the Cm6.

Cm6 has A natural, so the Abmaj7 wouldn’t be the way to go because it has an Ab and no A natural. The Ebmaj7 and Cm pentatonic don’t have the Ab but they also don’t have the A. They both have Bb which often isn’t really the note you want over Cm6 either.

For a start, try taking that Cm pentatonic in the main box pattern people start with and lower your Bbs to A naturals and keep everything else the same. You’ll immediately recognize that as a sound you’ve heard in blues. Grant Green and BB King both love it so it can’t be wrong. Killer sound over a minor blues like you’ve got, and over a regular blues.

That brings me to the bigger point. You used the word “device” and then listed some very general harmonic strategies. When I think of devices, I think of smaller picture things … stuff like play the line cliche over a minor chord, or more specific patterns or ideas.

I think that’s the way to go in blues playing and in minor key playing. A lot of the time thinking of chord scales and harmonic devices in either of those contexts can actually obscure what’s going on. For example, Grant Green uses harmonic minor all over minor tunes, but I’d bet my next paycheck he’s not thinking of it like that. He’s playing root to fifth of a minor scale, and using B natural below the C and Ab above the G to bounce him back into that little shape. Most of his vocabulary is coming from right in there. That (and looking at the actual vocabulary he and others are using) will get you wayyyy further than thinking about general harmonic devices.

And I’m not anti theory. Thinking that way is useful in the right context and over lots of standard tunes can be helpful, though still counter productive when you overdo it. But over blues tunes and minor key stuff, it’s just not really that helpful.

Over the non-resolving v (G7alt) I'd use the fifth as a guide and go to Db jazz minor or diminished. The resolving v chord is up half a step, so Ab jazz minor or diminished over G7 alt.

Also for what it's worth, I'm not really sure what you mean by this. Db jazz minor or Db diminished why?

EDIT: Solution ... transcribe a couple licks from that killer sax solo. Some awesome standard vocabulary in there ... variations on the Cry Me a River lick, etc. Also as an addendum to my early earlier thing, it does sound like the trumpet player is playing some Bbs over the C minor. Not the default thing you'd go to if you hear a Cm6, but this record is mid-60s and the dorian sort of sound over a tonic minor was definitely way more common by then.

[Tal_175]

I agree that AbMaj is not your first line of defence when Cmin6 is coming towards you. You can't go wrong with EbMaj though.

Regarding blues, Cmin6 is practically F9. A basic approach to jazz blues is to play static dominant ideas over the non-resolving chords.

So here is a simple approach many people are familiar with:
F7-Cmin7- Amin7b5(Cmin6)-Ebmaj7 are your basic arpeggios. F Mixolydian (or F dominant) is your scale. Note the arpeggios also contain all the scale notes and nothing else. You add blue notes, chromatic passing notes and octave displacement to these dominant devices to develop vocabulary. You can also use the same vocabulary over the other chords (Amin7b5, Cmin6, EbMaj7#4). Make sure you can outline guide tone lines over the changes and use them to connect your vocabulary.

[mr. beaumont]

Cool tune...

So as you've noticed, it's like a stretched out minor blues, but you can't just play blues licks on it, this one calls for a more modal approach to my ears. They're definitely going for a more "Eastern" sound here, definitely got popular in jazz around this time...

You have the C-6 to G7alt vamp...I wouldn't try to think two different scales over that. The soloists on the original are playing a whole lot of straight up minor there...lots of Ab's in the solos. They're not really suggesting the G7alt very much, almost nothing in the way of B naturals in there...Cm6 would usually scream "DORIAN!" at me, but I'm not hearing much in the way of A naturals, plenty of Bb's and Ab's...

Most of them hit the C7 at the end of the "A" section pretty hard to transition to F-, I'm hearing Dorian, right back to C-, and then you can go with whatever G7alt kind of sound you want to get back to the i chord.

If I was going to be asked to play this one with a group today, I'd just think 15 bars of C minor, C7 in bar 16, then 2 bars each F dorian (Fm6/9 chord tones), C minor, G7alt, C minor.

[pamosmusic]

You can't go wrong with EbMaj thought.

With this one there's a big difference depending on style and time period.

If it's Charlie Parker, then not a lot of Bbs over that chord. If it's Joe Henderson, then plenty of Bbs.

Stylistically ... Wes plays plenty and Grant Green almost none.

I edited the post a while ago listening to the tune. Lots of Bbs in the solo. The trumpet player leans pretty hard on them, almost exclusively, for the first half of his chorus. Left the original up though, because if I'm seeing that chord come up in most standards, then I'm still not going for Ebmaj7 or a dorian sound.

In general for that minor stuff, looking for the actual vocabulary is the way to go. Saying a particular harmonic device is working over a minor key tune a lot of the time is like saying blues is mixolydian. Where that might sort of true in a strict sense, but where convention and idiom really dictate how the notes are used more than in other settings.

[Tal_175]

In general for that minor stuff, looking for the actual vocabulary is the way to go. Saying a particular harmonic device is working over a minor key tune a lot of the time is like saying blues is mixolydian. Where that might sort of true in a strict sense, but where convention and idiom really dictate how the notes are used more than in other settings.

Barry Harris, Pat Martino, Wes Montgomery and many others would disagree with you. There is a difference between vocabulary and intangible elements of musicality. Playing dominant ideas over a minor chord and visa versa is not saying minor is mixolydian and visa versa. These germinal ideas are expressed in different contexts differently. You'd see these players use the same vocabulary elements in a variety of contexts.There is only so much play this arpeggio over this can do, you have to trust the musician for the rest.

[Gladders]

Thanks for that. I'll try the pentatonic with the Bb flattened to A.

Also for what it's worth, I'm not really sure what you mean by this. Db jazz minor or Db diminished why?

I don't know the technicality, but (to me) playing a jazz minor referencing the fifth of a dominant chord sounds good. By jazz minor, I mean flat 3rd, major 7th. The same holds for the diminished arpeggio - over a C7, a Gdim arpeggio sounds great.

EDIT - Normally the Db would be a straight D, but I flattened it because of the alt voicing. Admittedly, that might not be the right alteration...

[pamosmusic]

Thanks for that. I'll try the pentatonic with the Bb flattened to A.



I don't know the technicality, but (to me) playing a jazz minor referencing the fifth of a dominant chord sounds good. By jazz minor, I mean flat 3rd, major 7th. The same holds for the diminished arpeggio - over a C7, a Gdim arpeggio sounds great.

The fifth would be D natural ... in which case, yeah.

[pamosmusic]

Barry Harris, Pat Martino, Wes Montgomery and many others would disagree with you.

I'm not sure why you chose such a selective quote to argue with on this one ...

As far as Pat Martino goes, I did say that there's a big difference in the time period here. It's fairly common to use the dorian sound for tonic minor from the hard bop period on. Pat Martino would certainly qualify.

As for Wes, I specifically said he uses lots of dorian sounds in that context.

As for Barry ... you may or may not be right on that one. I'm not a Barry expert. But over a minor 6 chord or tonic minor vibe, the standard choice would be the minor 6 dim scale. I'm sure down the line there are other things going on, but that's the baseline anyway.

For what it's worth:

With this one there's a big difference depending on style and time period.

If it's Charlie Parker, then not a lot of Bbs over that chord. If it's Joe Henderson, then plenty of Bbs.

Stylistically ... Wes plays plenty and Grant Green almost none.

...

Also as an addendum to my early earlier thing, it does sound like the trumpet player is playing some Bbs over the C minor. Not the default thing you'd go to if you hear a Cm6, but this record is mid-60s and the dorian sort of sound over a tonic minor was definitely way more common by then.

[Tal_175]

For what it's worth I was responding to this quote.

In general for that minor stuff, looking for the actual vocabulary is the way to go. Saying a particular harmonic device is working over a minor key tune a lot of the time is like saying blues is mixolydian. Where that might sort of true in a strict sense, but where convention and idiom really dictate how the notes are used more than in other settings.

[Gladders]

Cool tune...

So as you've noticed, it's like a stretched out minor blues, but you can't just play blues licks on it, this one calls for a more modal approach to my ears. They're definitely going for a more "Eastern" sound here, definitely got popular in jazz around this time...

You have the C-6 to G7alt vamp...I wouldn't try to think two different scales over that. The soloists on the original are playing a whole lot of straight up minor there...lots of Ab's in the solos. They're not really suggesting the G7alt very much, almost nothing in the way of B naturals in there...Cm6 would usually scream "DORIAN!" at me, but I'm not hearing much in the way of A naturals, plenty of Bb's and Ab's...

Most of them hit the C7 at the end of the "A" section pretty hard to transition to F-, I'm hearing Dorian, right back to C-, and then you can go with whatever G7alt kind of sound you want to get back to the i chord.

If I was going to be asked to play this one with a group today, I'd just think 15 bars of C minor, C7 in bar 16, then 2 bars each F dorian (Fm6/9 chord tones), C minor, G7alt, C minor.

Thanks. Super helpful.

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[pamosmusic]

For what it's worth I was responding to this quote.

Okay. Well I guess I'm not sure how confident I could be that any of those guys would disagree with that either. I mean ... Pat's book is about a harmonic concept, but the whole thing is constructed around specific lines that illustrate that harmonic concept.

And I was referring to a specific setting ... tonic minor being one, blues being another ... where the chord scale thinking can be accurate, but also not super helpful. I didn't really say so, but in other settings it's super helpful. Realizing that pretty much any bebop-ish shape out of an F7 scale will sound hip as heck over an F7 chord is pretty liberating.

But there tend to be more limitations or guardrails or something when you're using chord scales over a tonic minor tune. Like the cadence itself ... Dm7(b5) G7 Cm6 right there would imply sort of a shift from harmonic to melodic minor. But that's just not really the way people tend to play it in the wild. Even the ii-V would be straightforward harmonic minor ... sort of. Thinking that way might lead into a bunch of pathways that could be cool, but that also might not lead terribly quickly to vocabulary that sounds familiar. Thinking of that root-fifth and the seventh below and flat sixth above is really useful. Lots and lots and lots of lines just playing familiar patterns through that, without crossing that #2 interval between Ab and B in either direction. Some idiomatic ways of changing register (G major triad, a tag down from C to G, an Abdim7 arpeggio) and it's a goldmine of vocabulary. The stuff all comes from harmonic minor technically, but the scale isn't used as freely and the pathways aren't as equal opportunity as, say, the F7 scale over an F7 chord.

[pamosmusic]

Try thinking mire like a jazz musician here.

lol I might collapse in on myself like a dying star if I tried to think more like a jazz musician, but I'll give it a go.

For example, playing C melodic minor is a common substitution over Cmin7. Even though Cmin7 has a minor 7th in it, we play a scale with a maj7 I it, harmonic minor. Essentially we are subbing the minmaj7th sound over a min7th chord, and the extra color sounds great. We know it works because the voice leading in ii V i leads us to a minmaj7 on i rather than a i min7.

Sure. Like I said, this is style dependent.

Grant Green or Charlie Parker use the tonic minor sound over a minor 7 chord all the live long day, but don't often do the reverse.

Wes does a good bit of both.

So tour example is, in a sense, just the reverse of that logic. See what I mean? And, Bb is the min 3rd of C. So there really isn't a more minor sounding interval than that in the scale.

You'll need to run that Bb bit by me again. Minor 7 over C.

So using melodic minor, you are subbing in a major7 when the chord has a min7, but that added color sounds great. In your example, with c min pentatonic, your subbing a minor interval over a chord with a major interval and with the good phrasing (which is really the key to everything) that can sound equally great.

This is true, but that good phrasing you mention is pretty key there. Part of phrasing would entail understanding the role of the note in the line. That natural 7 over the minor 7 is often more like a leading tone than a chord tone, or part of a larger structure like a G major triad or Ab dim 7 or some such.

When someone is asking something like "how do I navigate this chord," I don't often find it super helpful to give a chord-scale answers that are conditional on "good phrasing" and withholding explanation of what that good phrasing entails.

You probably already know this, but one of EVH's genius 'secrets' was adding the bluesy #4 from the blues scale to the Dorian mode. He always did that. ?So he was getting that minor sounding Dorian thing plus the added #4 blue note juxtaposed over "happy" sounding major key (for the most part) Van Helen songs.

B.B. King et al might beg to differ on characterization of that one as a secret.

Okay -- I didn't collapse under the weight of my own gravity. Whew.

[AdroitMage]

The first thing I’d say is that actually none of those would be great choices over the Cm6.

Cm6 has A natural, so the Abmaj7 wouldn’t be the way to go because it has an Ab and no A natural. The Ebmaj7 and Cm pentatonic don’t have the Ab but they also don’t have the A. They both have Bb which often isn’t really the note you want over Cm6 either.

[/FONT]

Try thinking a bit more like a jazz musician here. For example, playing C melodic minor is a common substitution over Cmin7. Even though Cmin7 has a minor 7th in it, we play a scale with a maj7 in it, harmonic minor. Essentially we are subbing the minmaj7th sound over a min7th chord, and the extra color sounds great. We know it works because the voice leading in a minor ii V i leads us to a minmaj7 on i rather than a i min7.

So your example is, in a sense, just the "inverse" of that logic, but still, in a sense, the same kind of thing going on. See what I mean?

So using melodic minor, you are subbing in a major7 when the chord has a min7, but that added color sounds great. In your example, with C min pentatonic, your subbing a minor interval over a chord with that same major interval, and with good phrasing (which is really the key to everything) that can sound equally great. And C min pentatonic has the min 3rd (which sounds really minor, and your Bb is the min7th of C, so it still sounds really "C minor." As we kn9w as jazz musicians, bringing in some color from outside the chord or even outside of the key can make our lines sound super hip and sophisticated, with good phrasing.

Something else worth trying, is to play Cmin pentatonic with Bb as an avoid note. You could also 'alter' the pentatonic by adding A to the scale rather than Bb and see how you like that. Though not my 1st choice, IMO it could be worked in there to good effect.

Also, we're talking a blues here, so you might want to think about adding that bluesy #4 to your Cmin pentatonic scale and make it a blues scale. That 'blue note' is really powerful, use it when you can.

You probably already know this, but one of EVH's genius 'secrets' was adding the bluesy #4 from the blues scale to the Dorian mode. He always did that. So he was getting that minor sounding Dorian thing plus the added #4 blue note juxtaposed over "happy" sounding major key (for the most part) Van Halen songs.

Anyway, hopefully that all made sense. I haven't had my coffee yet, so.

[Al Haig]

You can use whatever you want as long as it sounds good. Don't forget blues scale and pent. Then there's melodic minor and dorian as your standard sounds. You can also use any of the minor scales with a b6 to give a dim color which is a cool sound even though they're viewed as 'avoid' scales which is dumb: natural minor, harmonic minor, phrygian etc. Another device I really like for minor blues is shifty pent. If you play g minor pent over c minor it gives it a suspended sound. Experiment with what root to shift it to or move it chromatically up and down.

[GuyBoden]

Like most hobby players, we try to copy licks from the best.

[Al Haig]

^ No they're not optimal choices. Eb major over C is natural minor and Ab major over C is phrygian. These are viable choices to throw in if you want to use a funky sounding dim color, but I wouldn't shed them as main devices.

[Mick-7]

Found a chart of this tune in the Jazz Ltd fake book, the A section only has two chords: Cm6/9 & G7b5b9, which suggests C dorian minor (Bb maj.) and Ab melodic minor respectively.

The bridge is: | Fm6 | Dm7b5 - G7b9/#9 | (suggests F dorian/Eb maj), then: | Cm7 | F13b9 | (C dorian/Bb maj, add Gb); then back to Dm7b5 / G7b9, ending on Cm.

[ragman1]

I don't believe this thread. There's a YT of this tune with solos. They're really simple, clear and anybody could get the notes from it. The Cm isn't a Cm6, it's a Cm69 which makes a lot of difference because the D is very prominent.

The basic scale is C dorian, although strangely they avoid the nat A. Anything else is just popped in per taste, like the exotic chromatic bit.

I just don't believe no one has posted this video to see how they do it. It's not even difficult. What's more difficult is the rhythm!

[Mick-7]

I don't believe this thread. There's a YT of this tune with solos. They're really simple, clear and anybody could get the notes from it. The Cm isn't a Cm6, it's a Cm69 which makes a lot of difference because the D is very prominent.

The basic scale is C dorian, although strangely they avoid the nat A. Anything else is just popped in per taste, like the exotic chromatic bit.

I just don't believe no one has posted this video to see how they do it.

We were all waiting for you to post it. The tune's harmony is simple, as you said.

The basic scale is C dorian, although strangely they avoid the nat A.

Yes, C Dorian or C harmonic minor will work over all the chords.

Sweet Honey Bee - Duke Pearson | Album | AllMusic

[AdroitMage]

Sure. Like I said, this is style dependent.

Grant Green or Charlie Parker use the tonic minor sound over a minor 7 chord all the live long day, but don't often do the reverse.

Wes does a good bit of both.

You'll need to run that Bb bit by me again. Minor 7 over C.

You need to get the place where all 12 notes are availible at all times. Once you realize that is the truth of the matter and how to utilize that, your playing on tunes like this, and in general will greatly improve. In the tune "Have You Heard" by Pat Metheny the blowing section is a minor blues with a bridge. Listen to his playing on that tune and then come back in here, with a straight face, and tell me he considers Bb as off limits over Cmin. C'mon, I dare ya, LOL. I'm going to stand on my statement and tell you if you think that, you're wrong.

This is true, but that good phrasing you mention is pretty key there. Part of phrasing would entail understanding the role of the note in the line. That natural 7 over the minor 7 is often more like a leading tone than a chord tone, or part of a larger structure like a G major triad or Ab dim 7 or some such.

When someone is asking something like "how do I navigate this chord," I don't often find it super helpful to give a chord-scale answers that are conditional on "good phrasing" and withholding explanation of what that good phrasing entails.

"Witholding an explanation of what good phrasing entials?" LOL, are you kidding me? There is no way to adaquetly explain that in words. The best explanation, IMO, is that your improv should be like language, like a conversation where the next phrase you play seems to logically flow from the previous phrase you just played, and that overall your solo has a beginning that builds to a climax (ooh yes) or maybe even several climaxes before reaching a resolution that resolves nicely back to the melody, but even that still doesn't explain it. The only way to learn that is to LISTEN to players with great phrasing, and in the world of jazz that's a lot of players. Then, learn to put that kind 9f MOJO into your own lines. You might not like that answer, but that's it.

B.B. King et al might beg to differ on characterization of that one as a secret.

When I listen to BB King. I don't hear him playing a lot of dorian. I hear him playing a lot of blues scale though. From that era, before EVH, I don't hear other hard rock players adding the #4 to the Dorian mode as extensively as EVH did, he always did it. It was just the way he played.

[pamosmusic]

You need to get the place where all 12 notes are availible at all times. Once you realize that is the truth of the matter and how to utilize that, your playing on tunes like this, and in general will greatly improve. The tune "Have You Heard" by Pat Metheny is a minor blues with a bridge. Listen to his playing on that tune and then come back in here, with a straight face, and tell me he considers Bb as off limits over Cmin. C'mon, I dare ya, LOL. I'm going to stand on my statement and tell you if you think that, you're wrong.

You're clearly not actually reading the responses.

Using Bb over a tonic minor is a stylistic thing. I believe I said that the Bb was common place starting in the hard bop era. Maybe early sixties. Maybe a bit earlier with some of those figures.

If I recall correctly, the bulk of Pat's work is somewhat after the period I'm referring to (considering he would have been a small child), by which time the Bb would be pretty commonplace.

"Witholding an explanation of what good phrasing entials?" LOL, are you kidding me? There is no way to adaquetly explain that in words. The best explanation, IMO, is that your improv should be like language, like a conversation where the next phrase you play seems to logically flow from the previous phrase you just played, and that overall your solo has a beginning that builds to a climax (ooh yes) or maybe even several climaxes before reaching a resolution that resolves nicely back to the melody, but even that still doesn't explain it. The only way to learn that is to LISTEN to players with great phrasing, and in the world of jazz that's a lot of players. Then, learn to put that kind 9f MOJO into your own lines. You might not like that answer, but that's it.

I don't know man. If you actually transcribe some stuff by people playing at this time period, they use the B natural in pretty predictable ways, in combination with the Ab and the A in also pretty predictable ways. So when you just call it melodic minor that might be technically correct in some places, but often not practically helpful in creating lines in the style.

When I listen to BB King. I don't hear him playing a lot of dorian. I hear him playing a lot of blues scale though. From that era, before EVH, I don't hear other hard rock players adding the #4 to the Dorian mode as extensively as EVH did, he always did it. It was just the way he played.

Again this comes from the inadequacy of a chord scale name being applied to the blues tradition. Ask a blues harmonic player what harp he/she plays over a blues in C and the answer you'll get is "Bb."

Might not be useful to describe BBs stuff as "Dorian" and I'd agree with you there, but he's using the natural 2 and the natural 6 and the b5 blue note all the live long day and over loads of different chords.

[pauln]

A part
8x888x 9x988x :||
87899x

B part
x8889x
10x1010xx x10910xx
8x888x x6776x
x910109x x8988x
8x888x

This tune does two similar things that will receive minor jazz blues devices very well. One of those is the A part, the move from bII to i, Db(13) to Cm7. The other is the last three chords of the B part, the VI to V to i, where the bII subs for the V.

[Al Haig]

Aren't you both right?

There are both the philosophy that you should be able to use whatever notes you want or whatever system you want; and there are groupings of stylistic choices. You take whatever perspective works best for your playing.

Some guys prefer adhering to stylistic choices all the time. Like Chris Parks tells you to never play the Bb on a tonic C-6. Others prefer a freer approach. Me, I like to be able to be able to use whatever sound I feel like, but I don't necessarily go all in for the any note all the time thing haha.

[pamosmusic]

Aren't you both right?

There are both the philosophy that you should be able to use whatever notes you want or whatever system you want; and there are groupings of stylistic choices. You take whatever perspective works best for your playing.

Some guys prefer adhering to stylistic choices all the time. Like Chris Parks tells you to never play the Bb on a tonic C-6. Others prefer a freer approach. Me, I like to be able to be able to use whatever sound I feel like, but I don't necessarily go all in for the any note all the time thing haha.

We are, in fact, both right because he's arguing against something I didn't say.

Funny how that happens.

And for what it's worth, the philosophy that you should be able to play whatever you want whenever you want is just a philosophy until you have some of that working knowledge of the idiom. The working knowledge of the idiom has to come first for the "anything you want" to be at all convincing.