Devices over a jazz blues

[pamosmusic]

Well, I transcribed everyone's idea onto a picture of a fret board and pretty much every single note is covered, so I'm going chromatic.

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Why are you looking for a scale over the whole tune?

Thats why I don’t have a lot of patience for the whole “you should be able to use all twelve notes over any chord” thing … because you should, but like Mr B says, they have weight.

You should be able to use all twelve notes over Cm6, but they’re going to have different jobs and you need to understand what the different notes are doing.

If you’ve transcribed all the licks, just learn them one at a time and try to understand them on their own terms.

Pick one lick and look for some underlying structure — a scale, an arpeggio, something. Then see what the other notes are doing relative to that thing — are they connecting the notes of the arpeggio, are they chromatic embellishments, enclosures? What’s happening?

[Al Haig]

Well, I transcribed everyone's idea onto a picture of a fret board and pretty much every single note is covered, so I'm going chromatic.

That's not the correct answer. You want to understand different layers of organization to be able to add the amount of chromaticism that you want, not just immediately throw all chromatic notes on the table.

Start with diatonic and blues as these are your basic sounds, then work in more chromaticism. 'Diatonic' 1 chord sounds are dorian and melodic minor. Blues sounds are blues scale and pent. Jazz uses dorian and melodic minor as their tonic minor sounds more often than natural minor even though they have altered notes. Natural minor isn't treated as a viable option in jazz theory, but that's a falsehood, you can use it too it just sounds dimmer if you want that.

The first way to add in chromaticism is on the 5 chords - lydian dominant, whole tone, diminished, diminished whole tone. Get all those systems down then start working on others. Chromaticism is essential in jazz but it isn't just a big experimentation fest with everything going all crazy playing whatever note all the time (unless you're Mark).

[ragman1]

Well, I transcribed everyone's idea onto a picture of a fret board and pretty much every single note is covered, so I'm going chromatic.

You mean you're preparing to solo it rather actually doing it. Not quite the same thing. I'm wondering what you mean by 'everyone's idea'. What, everyone? Your fretboard diagram's going to be pretty crowded!

Forgive me, but is this the right way to solo a tune? Can't you just play over a C minor chord? Or a Cm6? That's what you need to know, not making crazy diagrams. The best way to find that out is to do it, it's not difficult. In fact, it's very basic and all over the internet. Then you can do the F min or and G7alt.

Keep it dead simple. You might not need chromatic at all. Wait till you've mastered the simple version before you venture where angels fear to tread.

[Gladders]

Sorry, that was a joke. Clearly not a very good one.

I suppose to give a more serious response, I have found the discussion sometimes helpful, sometimes bamboozling and always interesting.

The advice from @pamosmusic to flatten the Bbs to A in the C pentatonic was good.

The advice from @mr. beaumont was easy to apply and worked.

And the advice from @ragman1 to listen to the solos on the original and see what they were doing was really helpful. While playing along I can pick bits of vocab up to incorporate even if I don't always know what is going on technically.

Thank you all for your input.

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[ragman1]

Sorry, that was a joke. Clearly not a very good one.

I suspect what you're saying is that, as usual, all these over-complicated theory-type answers have overwhelmed you. Quite right.

So, like I say, start easy and simple. Just like beginning of that original YT vid. Start easy and you'll be there before you know it. Try to get clever and you'll fail. Fact of life.

[Gladders]

I suspect what you're saying is that, as usual, all these over-complicated theory-type answers have overwhelmed you. Quite right.

So, like I say, start easy and simple. Just like beginning of that original YT vid. Start easy and you'll be there before you know it. Try to get clever and you'll fail. Fact of life.

Yeah, quite overwhelming, but over time I'm understanding more than I did.

Thanks for your excellent advice. Start slow and see where it goes.

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[pamosmusic]

I suspect what you're saying is that, as usual, all these over-complicated theory-type answers have overwhelmed you. Quite right.

So, like I say, start easy and simple. Just like beginning of that original YT vid. Start easy and you'll be there before you know it. Try to get clever and you'll fail. Fact of life.

You’re silly.

[ragman1]

Start slow and see where it goes

No, not 'see where it goes'. It goes what the tune is. Have another listen to the original. When the flute starts soloing it's all the same scale, right? it's all the same few notes, like a pentatonic. That's simple. That's where it goes.

[Gladders]

You’re silly.

Maybe the fault here is mine. I should have explained that I am learning improvisation. I go to a workshop where we take it in turns to comp and solo. I need to get through a chorus, two at the absolute most.

I appreciate that if you don't know a learners level, it's hard to pitch your help accurately. Consequently the forum mind has offered a range of support from ABC to PhD, all of it meant kindly. Some of it I've been able to access and use, some of it is beyond me. That's fine. It's good to see the range.

I'll try to be more specific in future.

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[ragman1]

You know, you started this on Jan 16. You could have done this by now and be racing ahead, easily.

Are you doing this tune in your workshop? How are they managing the rhythm? I'd like to know that. It's not a beginner's tune.

[pamosmusic]

Maybe the fault here is mine. I should have explained that I am learning improvisation. I go to a workshop where we take it in turns to comp and solo. I need to get through a chorus, two at the absolute most.

I appreciate that if you don't know a learners level, it's hard to pitch your help accurately. Consequently the forum mind has offered a range of support from ABC to PhD, all of it meant kindly. Some of it I've been able to access and use, some of it is beyond me. That's fine. It's good to see the range.

I'll try to be more specific in future.

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No all that was pretty clear.

I’m just making fun of Ragman.

Post no. 2 I mentioned you were getting a little lost in the theory and should see what actual people play over actual minor tunes. That’s the answer forever and always.

(remember you’re posting on an Internet forum, so you’ll hopefully get some good answers but you’ll also start a conversation that is existing on its own terms. So after two or three people recommend you transcribe what’s on the record, other answers and arguments might keep coming that have more to do with things said elsewhere in the thread than with your OP.)

[Gladders]

@ragman1 I used the early advice to get some preparation in for the workshop, which was genuinely helpful, but then I was ill and missed the workshop. That was a shame because I was going in with confidence having got some good advice here.

Your question about the rhythm is a good one. I agree, it's hard. The tutors are guests so I suppose they are wondering how to keep things fresh. This was certainly that.

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[pamosmusic]

No, not 'see where it goes'. It goes what the tune is. Have another listen to the original. When the flute starts soloing it's all the same scale, right? it's all the same few notes, like a pentatonic. That's simple. That's where it goes.

Not intentionally being an asshat here, ragman, but the flute solo is absolutely not pentatonic.

[ragman1]

It's C dorian, aka the Bb maj scale. But it's played with spaces like a pentatonic, not scalar.

[pamosmusic]

It's C dorian, aka the Bb maj scale. But it's played with spaces like a pentatonic, not scalar.

D G C G A G---- Bb C Bb G F Eb D----

Alright, I guess — not a lot of A naturals in there actually.

Though I do hear the Cry Me a River lick in various forms over and over again. So that’s cool.

Some Abs and Bs over the dominant thing, some flat five blue notes, lots of 1 2 b3 4 5 … really leaning on the color notes.

[ragman1]

not a lot of A naturals in there actually

I know, I already said that. Like I said, spaces. Post #19.

The basic scale is C dorian, although strangely they avoid the nat A.

I'm not getting into this with you, be warned

[pamosmusic]

I know, I already said that. Like I said, spaces. Post #19.




I'm not getting into this with you, be warned

So it’s a pentatonic but not a pentatonic and just like a pentatonic and it’s like Dorian but without the natural 6. Noted.

My point is that actually just learning and describing the lines is somewhat more useful than tying yourself up in knots to give it a scale name. That takes a lot of awareness of context and of what’s going on with the individual line and stuff.

your warning is heard — and ignored [throws down glove, rolls up sleeve, twirls ends of mustache]

[AllanAllen]

Though I do hear the Cry Me a River lick in various forms over and over again. So that’s cool.

Is there a compendium of these licks with names?

[pamosmusic]

Is there a compendium of these licks with names?

If there isn’t, there should be.

That one is the opening phrase of the tune Cry Me a River. There are some other pretty common ones — the major version of that, the opening of Misty, some bop head phrases, the opening of Birds Billie’s Bounce solo.

Some blues stuff deserves a name — I always call that blues cliche (starting on an upbeat D# E G A C) The Stinger — why? No clue.

This is a book idea. Someone do it.

EDIT: actually the back of Randy Vincent’s Guitarists Introduction to Jazz has some limited version of this

[ragman1]

Amazingly, I've found a chart for this. I had it all the time but didn't know it was there. Here's the chart and the melody (not the bass clef intro).

I'm not going to learn it so here's a midi of it. I hope you can hear it okay on your cell phones.

It has a 4/4 sig (or no time sig) so there are eight 8ths to a bar. But it's played as a 12/8, which means four sets of triplets. I've approximated the background rhythm as simply as I can and the chords are reduced to triads.

It has a C minor key sig which means the A's are flat despite the first chord being Cm69. Hence the absence of natural A's in the melody, presumably.

Improvising over these chords is a different thing altogether, of course, and already discussed. Have fun with it :-)

[supersoul]

The solos have lots of ideas for what to play. James Spaulding (flute) is playing a lot of C Aeolian (with the Ab, not an A natural). At 1:37 he even plays a cool decending half/whole diminished scale pattern, starting on a G.
All this to say, this tune is an example that C minor in jazz doesn't necessarily mean C Dorian.
The solos aren't difficult. Learn the longer notes and don't worry about the fast runs.