Experimental/free etc music

[kris]

Dude, Mark's playing....all of it, is some of the best I have ever listened to. All of it.

Do you mean free jazz or all jazz?

[guitarvegas]

Do you mean free jazz or all jazz?

I mean everything he touches on guitar is GOLD.

[kris]

I mean everything he touches on guitar is GOLD.

For me, all great jazz musicians produce golden notes.
And because of them, I feel like I'm just a simple jazz fan.

[guitarvegas]

For me, all great jazz musicians produce golden notes.
And because of them, I feel like I'm just a simple jazz fan.

Me: jazz fan #1
Jazz guitar enthusiast #2

[kris]

[kris]

[ragman1]

This this this is is is lovely lovely lovely :-)

[Mark Kleinhaut]

Liebs has seen it all and done it all and KNOWS what he’s talking about. One thing he’s saying about free jazz that hits a nerve with me about free jazz is how on the positive side it is so “in the moment” when playing with “no agenda” and “purity”; but offsetting this- and making it difficult listing that demands so much from listeners, is how it can be “dissonant and cacophonous”, or giving none of the pleasures of “melody you can remember, tap your foot to” among other things. But why do these dualities have to be accepted by us? can’t these facets intersect rather than oppose each other? Cant juxtaposition of zero agenda music coexist with the pleasure bits? Desert Soup?

[ragman1]

I have a feeling that the best free jazz is a collaboration of different players, i.e. a band, rather than a solo affair. Not only that but a collaboration of players who really know what they're doing musically, whose ears are trained to work with and respond to others of equal sensitivity.

Considering what guitarvegas is doing is not that, i.e. solo and lacking any deep musical knowledge, he's really not doing badly at all. It'll be interesting to see how it develops over time. These things are not built in a day.

[kris]

I have been interested in D.Liebman's music for over 40 years.He is one of the greatest musicians in the history of jazz.He has enormous knowledge of jazz improvisation.Few people know that he recorded two albums with John Scofield - my favorite jazz guitarist.Both Liebman and Scofield are very universal and conscious musicians - simply top.In the recordings of these artists you can also find elements of free jazz in other recordings. However, it is a small percentage and that suits me.

[kris]

I have a feeling that the best free jazz is a collaboration of different players, i.e. a band, rather than a solo affair. Not only that but a collaboration of players who really know what they're doing musically, whose ears are trained to work with and respond to others of equal sensitivity.

Considering what guitarvegas is doing is not that, i.e. solo and lacking any deep musical knowledge, he's really not doing badly at all. It'll be interesting to see how it develops over time. These things are not built in a day.

But it's strange what you write.Guitarvegas himself writes that he needs to learn to play. He probably even found an older teacher.
I have to write here about my experience with a free musician who told me he could play anything.
Well, he stood on stage for two sets and didn't play a single note.There was total silence.
He previously assured me that he knew every standard in every key.
To tell the truth, he did the right thing.

[Mick-7]

If you can't play anything you can imagine, any musical idea you hear in your head - within the technical limitations of your instrument - than you are not a "free" player, you are restricted by your lack of ability and knowledge. By this definition, there are very few free players, Dave Liebman is probably one, as is Sam Rivers - he was also a music professor.

Considering what guitarvegas is doing is not that, i.e. solo and lacking any deep musical knowledge, he's really not doing badly at all.

That's fine I suppose, if "not doing badly" is your musical goal.

[Mark Kleinhaut]

I knew many musicians who played free music.
Many of them no longer play free music at all.
A large group of these musicians started learning standards and improvising on chord changes.
Why is this happening?

Because they want to get gigs in playing background music in restaurants

[kris]

Because they want to get gigs in playing background music in restaurants

Jazz clubs are also a kind of restaurant.

[kris]

I respect every gig with jazz music.The place doesn't matter.

[Mark Kleinhaut]

I respect every gig with jazz music.The place doesn't matter.

and you live where?

[kris]

and you live where?

Close to the big city of Warsaw.

[Spirit59]

If you can't play anything you can imagine, any musical idea you hear in your head - within the technical limitations of your instrument - than you are not a "free" player, you are restricted by your lack of ability and knowledge. By this definition, there are very few free players, Dave Liebman is probably one, as is Sam Rivers - he was also a music professor.



That's fine I suppose, if "not doing badly" is your musical goal.

So many people's exposure to "free jazz" is limited to hearing groups of "free" musicians who play together without listening / reacting to one another, absorbed in their own worlds which mostly results in the typical cacaphony associated with the genre. These people can't, as you say, play anything they can imagine.

If people would only dig a little deeper, there are many fine improvising musicians that are quite capable of playing really free. There are varying gradations of "free" playing - sometimes there will be free-ish interludes within pieces that have some structure.

In the early 2000s, a friend hipped me to a David Binney record called South - not all of it free by a long shot but as I checked out some other work by Binney and side men / those within that circle (Brian Blade, Adam Rogers, Craig Taborn, Donny McCaslin etc.), I discovered ways of playing that I'd never imagined.

Really it's sort of a continuation of what Miles's second quintet was doing and then what Wayne Shorter's last group did. In the middle of that there were guys like Dave Liebman, Dave Holland, Ritchie Beirach, John Abercrombie and others on ECM.

These are just a few of the many musician who are capable, who play with great creativity and empathy, who listen and react in the moment.

[kris]

So many people's exposure to "free jazz" is limited to hearing groups of "free" musicians who play together without listening / reacting to one another, absorbed in their own worlds which mostly results in the typical cacaphony associated with the genre. These people can't, as you say, play anything they can imagine.

If people would only dig a little deeper, there are many fine improvising musicians that are quite capable of playing really free. There are varying gradations of "free" playing - sometimes there will be free-ish interludes within pieces that have some structure.

In the early 2000s, a friend hipped me to a David Binney record called South - not all of it free by a long shot but as I checked out some other work by Binney and side men / those within that circle (Brian Blade, Adam Rogers, Craig Taborn, Donny McCaslin etc.), I discovered ways of playing that I'd never imagined.

Really it's sort of a continuation of what Miles's second quintet was doing and then what Wayne Shorter's last group did. In the middle of that there were guys like Dave Liebman, Dave Holland, Ritchie Beirach, John Abercrombie and others on ECM.

These are just a few of the many musician who are capable, who play with great creativity and empathy, who listen and react in the moment.

And that's the point.
Recently I started wondering when experienced jazz musicians start experimenting with 'free'.
What encourages them to play free music?
Maybe they simply treat free music as one of the means of musical expression.
Or it results from the need to play in a specific style - in this case, free.

[James W]

Big lover of free jazz here, including stuff many people might call cacophanous.

Late Trane all the way. And I've assembled a fair few CDs of Paul Dunmall, which are mostly of his free playing (he's also wonderful at other subgenres of jazz).

[Mark Kleinhaut]

And that's the point.
Recently I started wondering when experienced jazz musicians start experimenting with 'free'.
What encourages them to play free music?
Maybe they simply treat free music as one of the means of musical expression.
Or it results from the need to play in a specific style - in this case, free.

For me, playing free began the instant I first picked up the instrument and knew absolutely nothing. It has continued as a parallel thread In coexistence with years of study and experience playing “organized” music, reading, composing, improvising on forms, gigs of every kind. Freeform was and is never a heartbeat away from playing “straight”. I’ve never accepted or approved of an either-or mentality. As an aside, the older I get the less I like cacophony- which often gets wrong linked to free playing.

[James W]

As an aside, the older I get the less I like cacophony- which often gets wrong linked to free playing.

Could you give some examples of what some might regard as free playing but which is in fact cacophony?

Seems to me that cacophony is pretty subjective. I reckon many uninitiated would regard a lot of classic free jazz as cacophonous.

[James W]

I'm not sure if this is free jazz or free improvisation or cacophony... all I know is that it's awesome...

[Mark Kleinhaut]

I'm not sure if this is free jazz or free improvisation or cacophony... all I know is that it's awesome...

Definitely cacophonous! Definitely awesome. If I were there at the time I would have been enraptured front row and mesmerized in a state of bliss. Now, I can’t bear to listen to this recording for more than a few seconds- it’s literally painful. Truth be told, the only Freeform music I spend any time listening to is the work I create myself. That I can listen to all day long.

[kris]

Such music was fashionable in Poland in the 1970s: