Chord Shapes as a basis for Improv

[AllanAllen]

This sax player told me thinks of the full 7 note chord on the staff and the next one and he picks a way to navigate them.

[Mick-7]

I am a bit confused. Earlier you said if you were stopped at any point you would be able to tell what note you're an and how it relates to the chord-in-the-moment.

So when you say "No", I am not sure which part of my post you are saying "no" to. You can play motivically and still have awareness of the form and the chords (chord in the moment, chord being approached to and where they are in the progression). That is not a contradiction.

Maybe what you mean is, if you were stopped, you'd probably figure this out after some thinking but that sort of deliberate awareness is not an automatically accessible resource that you use when you play or practice. Is that what you mean?

I can be aware in real time of the relationship of the notes I play to the chord progression and apply this information when I'm playing an unfamiliar tune or practicing. But apart from those situations, that sort of deductive analysis would get in the way of improvising.

As a guitarist I am conscious of grips and arpeggios, whereas as a horn player, I am more conscious of scales and patterns.

Seems you've confirmed my suspicion: I do think like a horn player because when I'm being analytical, I think mostly about scale tones and melodic patterns rather than chord grips and arpeggios.

[pamosmusic]

I can be aware in real time of the relationship of the notes I play to the chord progression and apply this information when I'm playing an unfamiliar tune or practicing. But apart from those situations, that sort of deductive analysis would get in the way of improvising.

Y’know — I’m not sure I would know precisely what note I’m playing over a given chord if you stopped me. But the more I read of this, the more I think a defining feature of my whole thing is that I wouldn’t care to know, even if I could do it.

[Mick-7]

Also adding to rpjazzgutiar's point. I agree that playing the changes with shapes is itself not the goal. My fretboard references are developed well enough that I can do that all day, my problem is I often feel like the changes are playing me most of the time. I am too rigid in my adherence to them.

I think you've highlighted a potential downside of being too chord focused, i.e., a tendency to outline the chord changes. When you're a beginning improvisor, it's a good idea, but to be a good improvisor, you'll eventually have to abandon the practice - except perhaps for learning a new tune and practicing.

When chord tones become a close neighbor.....

[Mick-7]

Y’know — I’m not sure I would know precisely what note I’m playing over a given chord if you stopped me. But the more I read of this, the more I think a defining feature of my whole thing is that I wouldn’t care to know, even if I could do it.

I understand your point, but it's not a single note thing, that would be too anal. It's more like how a set of notes, a brief musical motif or phrase, relates to the chord progression, I imagine that is something you would care about?

You'd be a lousy music sight reader if you read scores note by note, you must be able to recognize musical phrases to be good at it - same with improvising.

[Tal_175]

I think you've highlighted a potential downside of being too chord focused, i.e., a tendency to outline the chord changes. When you're a beginning improvisor, it's a good idea, but to be a good improvisor, you'll eventually have to abandon the practice - except perhaps for learning a new tune and practicing.

When chord tones become a close neighbor.....

Yeah, I feel like I am sometimes too chord focused especially when playing a tune I haven't fully digested. But the solution is not to completely abandon any sort of chordal visual reference during performance in my opinion. Visual references also allow me to open up my creativity when I know the tune well or help me stay in connected with the form. So those are also some of the times I am happy with my playing. I have heard many master jazz guitarist also talk about visual references in their playing. They sound great.

I have also played with "ear players" who don't have a strong fretboard foundation for jazz aside from one or two parent scales. Some of them sounded like they were noodling simple melodies that lack jazz phrasing inside a scale over the progressions and often get lost in the form. But they were happy with their lines. Good for them but that's not what I am going for when I play.

[pamosmusic]

I understand your point, but it's not a single note thing, that would be too anal. It's more like how a set of notes, a brief musical motif or phrase, relates to the chord progression, I imagine that is something you would care about?

You'd be a lousy music sight reader if you read scores note by note, you must be able to recognize musical phrases to be good at it - same with improvising.

Well sure. That's a bit of a different contention though.

It's a pretty short slide down the slippery slope from "I consciously recognize sets of notes and phrases as I play" to "I map the fretboard using sets of notes and phrases as I play."

So at that point, I wouldn't be entirely sure what distinction you're trying to make.

[Mick-7]

Well sure. That's a bit of a different contention though.

It's a pretty short slide down the slippery slope from "I consciously recognize sets of notes and phrases as I play" to "I map the fretboard using sets of notes and phrases as I play."

So at that point, I wouldn't be entirely sure what distinction you're trying to make.

Well, the sentence in bold doesn't even make sense, my references are just more aural than visual. I think it stems partly from the fact that I am mostly self taught, I had no formal music training. I started out by trying to play music I heard, trying to find the notes on the guitar. So initially I mapped out the fingerboard aurally, not visually, theoretical knowledge of harmony, scales, the ability to read music, etc., came later.

I still remember what triggered the recognition that I'd really need to understand how jazz works in order to play it. I was trying to transcribe Howard Roberts rendition of "Relaxin' at Camarillo," and realized that I had no idea how he was playing some of his lines, I was extremely annoyed!

[James W]

So initially I mapped out the fingerboard aurally, not visually

Hmm. So you didn't look at the fretboard at all? Sorry, but this feels like a bit of a false dichotomy. No one doesn't look at the fretboard and also no one maps it out without connecting the sounds it makes, at least to some extent.

Correct me if I'm wrong but 'mapping out' is by definition visual...

[Mick-7]

Hmm. So you didn't look at the fretboard at all? Sorry, but this feels like a bit of a false dichotomy. No one doesn't look at the fretboard and also no one maps it out without connecting the sounds it makes, at least to some extent.

I learned a few basic scales and how to play them all over the fingerboard and associated the note patterns (musical phrases) I heard with those scales rather than with chord forms. As I said in a previous post: "I think mostly about scale tones and melodic patterns rather than chord grips and arpeggios."

Correct me if I'm wrong but 'mapping out' is by definition visual.

If that were literally true, there'd be no blind musicians. Maps must be cognitive but they need not be visual -- Cognitive map formation - ScienceDirect

[Tal_175]

I learned a few basic scales and how to play them all over the fingerboard and associated the note patterns (musical phrases) I heard with those scales rather than with chord forms. As I said in a previous post: "I think mostly about scale tones and melodic patterns rather than chord grips and arpeggios."

So you don't have any visual reference for how these scale patterns map on the fingerboard?

[Mick-7]

So you don't have any visual reference for how these scales patterns map on the fingerboard?

I have one but I'd have a hard time describing it. It's more about the intervals that make up the scales and how those intervals lay out on the fingerboard. Taking scales and playing them in various intervals, 3rds, 4ths, 5ths, 6ths, etc., and making melodies with them, is a good exercise for both ear training and improvisation. And when that becomes easy for you, you could go back and forth from one scale to another, play twelve tone rows, etc. Or try to play the lines of people like Eric Dolphy, Anthony Braxton, Cecil Taylor, etc., that'll definitely expand your melodic horizon.

[Tal_175]

I have one but I'd have a hard time describing it. It's more about the intervals that make up the scales and how those intervals lay out on the fingerboard. Taking scales and playing them in various intervals, 3rds, 4ths, 5ths, 6ths, etc., and making melodies with them, is a good exercise for both ear training and improvisation. And when that becomes easy for you, you could go back and forth from one scale to another, play twelve tone rows, etc. Or try to play the lines of people like Eric Dolphy, Anthony Braxton, Cecil Taylor, etc., that'll definitely expand your melodic horizon.

Yeah, these are good exercises. I've been doing them on and off for several years. I also like one up, one down interval patterns, like 1-3 4-2 etc. But at least as important are triad and 7th chord patterns within a scale.

[GuyBoden]

I admit I don't know chord grips, I select intervals from a scale.

At a simple level, I'd only select the 1st, and 3rd (10th) for a Major voicing.

Move the 7th to b7th for Dom voicing
Move the 7th to b7th and 3rd to b3rd for minor voicing.
etc

But, I do know the whole of the fretboard and note intervals very well, but only 6 keys: D, G, C, F, Bb, Eb.

So, I'm a failure at knowing chord grips and playing in the other 6 keys.

[Christian Miller]

Yeah I do intervals these days, influence of figured bass. But obviously super relevant to jazz too.

But intervals are of course - shapes on the guitar. I know what a minor tenth or a major second looks like on the fretboard. Chords are compound shapes involving two or more intervals.

So you still there’s a visual element. Of course, just because I can see these things on the fretboard doesn’t mean I’m not hearing them, sometimes I think people imply a false dichotomy.

So I suppose that’s going scales into harmony.

Incidentally, I think Barry Harris is oddly non intervallic, a lot of the time we are using the language of chords to describe something that is actually about intervals.

But I’ll get back on that because I’m having enough trouble with normal scales lol.

It’s almost like scales give birth to harmony and harmony gives rise to scales and the whole ghastly cycle continues haha.


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[Mick-7]

But, I do know the whole of the fretboard and note intervals very well, but only 6 keys: D, G, C, F, Bb, Eb.

So, I'm a failure at knowing chord grips and playing in the other 6 keys.

Yeah, well, personally I don't buy the "you must know a tune in all 12 keys" bit. Six out of twelve keys is sufficient, especially on the guitar where fingerings and chord forms are identical in keys a semitone apart. You must know the key signatures but that's a different subject.

[Skip Ellis]

From my many years of playing pedal steel, I mostly learn tunes with the Nashville number system - makes it real easy to transpose. I rarely play with others so I learn my chord melody tunes in whatever key I find comfortable - I play 'Georgia' in F or C and 'Moonlight in Vermont' in Eb or C depending on my mood. What little improvising I do is mostly out of chord shapes.

[pamosmusic]

… especially on the guitar where fingerings and chord forms are identical in keys a semitone apart

Sounds like someone’s visualizing some shapes

[wolflen]

Yeah, well, personally I don't buy the "you must know a tune in all 12 keys" bit. Six out of twelve keys is sufficient, especially on the guitar where fingerings and chord forms are identical in keys a semitone apart. You must know the key signatures but that's a different subject.

Granted..perhaps not a "tune" in all 12 keys..but the harmonic makeup of all keys to me is a must..I pushed myself to know the possibilities I have if and
when in a key by a modulation device and not feel "..oh oh..I'm lost.." so knowing the harmonic areas of all keys is for me worth the effort to learn.

And yes..some tunes in some keys is a hctib !

[Mick-7]

Sounds like someone’s visualizing some shapes

God, I hope not!