Chord Shapes as a basis for Improv

[wolflen]

Organize the shapes..the basic triad its inversions in major minor dim aug and implied dominant .. scales and intervals of each type

the four dominant relation is a very good study..all its inversions and positions give many melodic and harmonic ideas

G13 Bb13 Db13 E13 (all no root) this shape F B E now just invert G B D maj G Bb D min G Bb Db dim G B D# aug Db B F 7b5 and F B D dom all in one position
three note chord shapes .. connect this with the other three positions Bb Db and E then do a cycle of fourths/fifths etc

then different string sets..then incorporate it into some ii-V7 (iii vi) and of course some tunes

now using some scale fragments and melodic devices using scale and chromatic notes you can build some nice lines

seeing those four 13 chord shapes as a base give you alot of freedom to experiment

[AllanAllen]

3x345x

The middle of this one right?

[Mick-7]

The problem I am trying to solve is that I right now have scale shapes and chord shapes and they aren't connected that well and I want chord shapes to be the primary source material.

You may find the pdfs I shared here to be useful in that regard:
Playing melody in thirds, fourths, etc.

[charlieparker]

I believe Mr.Beaumont's point was that if you know what scale tones make up a chord, you'll have no problem relating chords to scales, or vice versa - and this is required to read music notation well.

I don't quite agree. A drop 2 is a specific voicing rule. So to go from a scale to a chord grip you need to identify the chord tones in the scale and which of those you want to choose for your voicing.

I find that two step process makes it too slow and not visual enough for me.

[mr. beaumont]

I don't quite agree. A drop 2 is a specific voicing rule. So to go from a scale to a chord grip you need to identify the chord tones in the scale and which of those you want to choose for your voicing.

I find that two step process makes it too slow and not visual enough for me.

Why is it a 2 step process? Just learn how to spell chords.

[charlieparker]

Why is it a 2 step process? Just learn how to spell chords.

I know how to spell chords in closed voicings but if someone asked me to spell a 1st inversion drop 2 C 7 chord would you know that instantly? I sure don't.

[Mick-7]

I know how to spell chords in closed voicings but if someone asked me to spell a 1st inversion drop 2 C 7 chord would you know that instantly.

Yes, I could do it instantly and have to be able to do so to read music well. You either know the tones that make up a chord or you don't, obviously you don't.

And wolflen gave you a shortcut to learn them, which is to first learn all the triad types: major, minor, augmented, diminished. Then you can add the relevant extensions to them - the b7th or #7th, etc.

And with a metronome, practice playing arpeggios (connecting the chord tones) of the chords in common chord progressions:
IIm7-V7-Imaj.7, etc. In C Major, that would be: D-F-A-C/ G-B-D-F/ C-E-G-B. Play them in different orders and make melodies out of them.

[charlieparker]

Yes, I could do it instantly and have to be able to do so to read music well. You either know the tones that make up a chord or you don't, obviously you don't.

And wolflen gave you a shortcut to learn them, which is to first learn all the triad types: major, minor, augmented, diminished. Then you can add the relevant extensions to them - the b7th or #7th, etc.

And with a metronome, practice playing arpeggios of every chord in common chord progressions: IIm7-V7-Imaj.7, etc. In C Major, that would be: D-F-A-C/ G-B-D-F/ C-E-G-B. Play them in different orders.

When I hear people recommend working with triads, I always assumed they were talking about the basic closed voice root, 1st and 2nd inversions. As opposed to triads with one of the notes dropped an octave which leaves a large interval between one of the notes in the triad.

Anyways, it doesn't seem like the path I want to pursue at the moment although, I may pursue wolfen's ideas in the framework I am thinking of. I just want to experiment with primarily just soloing from some chord shapes.

[mr. beaumont]

I know how to spell chords in closed voicings but if someone asked me to spell a 1st inversion drop 2 C 7 chord would you know that instantly? I sure don't.

But why would you need to do that to play off chord shapes/see scales within chord shapes?

[charlieparker]

But why would you need to do that to play off chord shapes/see scales within chord shapes?

That's a good question and I don't have a good answer. This is something I want to experiment with. But I think maybe it boils down to poor visualization on my part.

Essentially I find it harder to visualize a large scale shape and have a drop 2 voicing in it light up in my mind.

I find it easier to see a drop 2 grip and a few notes around it with a smaller shape.

Maybe this all fuses at some point but it was kind of inspired by a few ideas I have been experimenting, including one octave scales, three finger left hand and shifting using shapes as a basis for line elements as opposed to playing in a box.

[Mick-7]

All the triads can be synonyms for 7th chords, for example, off the top of my head:

G-B-D (G triad ) = Em7 (no root) & Ebmaj.7#5 (no root)

G-Bb-D (Gm triad) = Em7b5 (no root) & Ebmaj.7 (no root)

G-B-D# (G/B/Eb aug. triads) = Em#7, Abm#7 & Cm#7 (no roots)

G-Bb-Db (G dim. triad) = Eb7 & A7b9 (no roots) & Bbm6. And of course Go7 (G-Bb-Db-E) = Gb7b9, A7b9, C7b9 & Eb7 (no roots)

I've probably missed a few.

[rpjazzguitar]

I know how to spell chords in closed voicings but if someone asked me to spell a 1st inversion drop 2 C 7 chord would you know that instantly? I sure don't.

If you ask me the notes in a C7 I know them instantly and I know where every one of them is on the neck. I don't have to think about grips or scales.

But, if you ask me to spell a "first inversion drop 2 C7" I'd have to get out a pencil and paper and think for a few minutes. Why? Because, in my view (and there's always a great player who thinks differently) thinking about drop-n is not helpful, unless you're an arranger. The concept seems to appeal to people who want to organize every possible inversion and grip, or something, but I don't see the utility. Maybe I'd be better off if I did, but I don't.

That said, it's helpful to know grips and their various names. Makes it easier to grab a chord quickly when reading, say, a big band chart. And, thinking about a grip may be quicker than thinking about scale choices. It's a kind of safety net -- not my preferred way of approaching a solo, but I fall back onto it often enough.

What I would suggest is thinking about what Reg calls chord patterns. A pattern would be a sequences of chords that expand the basic harmony and, when he does it, sound classically jazzy (to my ear). Knowing those patterns will make comping more interesting and, if you play on all the extra chords, your solos will be more interesting too.

Or, you could learn the notes in the chords and scales you use (which is a lot of work, but so is every other approach) and learn the fingerboard really well and then use those tools to make melody.

[Tal_175]

What I am hoping to do is to take not base chord voicings, but instead actual grips that I would play like drop 2 voicings and sprinkle in some extra notes as a basis for improvisation or at leat practicing improvisation.

I use arpeggios as my main fretboard visualization reference. Scale notes, chord voicings, extensions, licks etc are all imbedded in that main reference.

If you want to use drop-2's as your reference that may work although I think it's a bit limiting. I am under the impression that your core assumption here is it'll be relatively easy to create melodic ideas off of drop-2's once you internalize them enough to access them during performances in reasonable tempos. Unless you're extraordinarily gifted and have endless melodic creativity, when you get there you'll realize that you need to learn language. I am speaking from my own experience of fretboard internalization. When I got good at the fretboard and was able to find chord tones in realtime, I realized that the struggle wasn't over. Turns out I don't have endless melodic creativity lol even if I can find chord tones quickly over every chord. I didn't take learning language sufficiently seriously until then.

[MarkRhodes]

Herb Ellis definitely played this way. He wrote several books on what was called "the shape system." ("Swing Blues," "Rhythm Shapes," and "All The Shapes You Are." Earlier, he wrote a book called "Blues Shapes," but that is no longer in print.)

[pauln]

I know how to spell chords in closed voicings but if someone asked me to spell a 1st inversion drop 2 C 7 chord would you know that instantly? I sure don't.

I still don't! Inversion and drop 2 are independent operations;
their order of application seems to produce unequal resultants

C7
C E G Bb
Drop 2 of C7
G C E Bb
1st Inversion of Drop 2 of C7
C E Bb G

or is it

C7
C E G Bb
1st Inversion of C7
E G Bb C
Drop 2 of 1st Inversion of C7
Bb E G C

[charlieparker]

Herb Ellis definitely played this way. He wrote several books on what was called "the shape system." ("Swing Blues," "Rhythm Shapes," and "All The Shapes You Are." Earlier, he wrote a book called "Blues Shapes," but that is no longer in print.)

Mark did you adopt Herb's system and was it effective for you?

[AllanAllen]

What I would suggest is thinking about what Reg calls chord patterns.

Where's he been anyway?

[pcjazz]

I know how to spell chords in closed voicings but if someone asked me to spell a 1st inversion drop 2 C 7 chord would you know that instantly? I sure don't.

Drop-2 chords span a tenth, so whichever tone is on the bottom, the next is on top: 1-3, 3-5, 5-6 (or 7), 6 (or 7)-1. I don’t think about them in terms of inversions but rather what note I want in the lead, e.g. for harmonizing a melody.

[wolflen]

I still don't! Inversion and drop 2 are independent operations;
their order of application seems to produce unequal resultants

C7
C E G Bb
Drop 2 of C7
G C E Bb
1st Inversion of Drop 2 of C7
C E Bb G

or is it

C7
C E G Bb
1st Inversion of C7
E G Bb C
Drop 2 of 1st Inversion of C7
Bb E G C

I dropped the drop..the term inversion I can grasp and see and hear the chord
to me it HAS to make sense ..When I first looked at this stuff..my question was ..."2 of what?" I could not get the concept using that title.

[MarkRhodes]

Mark did you adopt Herb's system and was it effective for you?

Good question. I learned a lot from it, though I had already been playing for a long time when I discovered it. (I actually worked with Pat Martino's "Linear Expressions" a lot before starting with Herb's approach.)

A lot of what Herb does is normal stuff----normal scale fingerings and normal chord shapes. He didn't invent any of that. It's not CAGED but his 3 major shapes are the same as you would find in CAGED. 7 shapes overall.

Two things stand out about Herb's approach. First, he teaches a lot of lines / solos, so you learn things you can actually play (and vary as circumstance warrants). Two, he shuns the 'play everything every which way' approach. Visualizing the shapes while playing the lines allows you to associate melodic ideas with simple grips. I found both useful. Of course, I love Herb's playing, so the kind of lines he teaches are the ones I like to play.

[rodolfoguitarra]

Tim Miller also talks about it

[Cunamara]

Of course rests are important but very few professional/great players impress us with their rests.

Well, Miles anyway.


The melodic key to a good solo, jazz or otherwise, IMHO is respect for the guide tones. A bit of an old fashioned notion in these days of abstract shredding solos presented with overwhelming speed that blurs whether the notes are right or not for most listeners. But respecting especially the 3rd and 7th of chords on the strong beats as they go by will provide gravity, intent and resolution to the solo. Utilizing chord shapes will help focus your fingers on those. Now, if you overdo the use of chord tones then it's just going to sound too close. Tension and resolution are the goal. Lots of ways to get that.

The other key to a good solo is groove. I hear way too many solos that don't meet up with the groove of the song, don't have any groove of their own. Swing and grooving are passé in jazz these days among "modern" players, it seems.

[Cunamara]

...in my view (and there's always a great player who thinks differently) thinking about drop-n is not helpful, unless you're an arranger.

I have also not found the drop chords concept helpful and it is cumbersome with a lot of cognitive overhead. I read a lot about them, got the Roni Ben Hur educational video about them, etc. Could never figure out how to make it useful. Part of it is that it is the inverse of the normal construction of chords, which goes from bass to soprano, by dropping notes down an octave. To me, when I look at a "drop" chord, what I see is a root position chord with one or more notes raised rather than dropped. Ditto with inversions. It's easier to think about raising the 3rd (CGBE instead of CEGB) an octave. And then doing drop chords of inversions and etc., oy vey!

Guitar chord grips are just what they are in order to be manageable, because we can't play two notes on one string simultaneously and there's only so far you can spread your fingers before you're gonna hurt something. Those grips may end up being a drop 2, drop 3, drop 2&3, drop 2&4, etc., but to me that's just a coincidence enforced by the nature of the guitar.

But whatever works for anybody in particular is whatever works for them. If somebody can manage drop chords and play successfully, more power to them.

[charlieparker]

Tim Miller also talks about it

Brilliant video. This is exactly what I'm talking about.

[charlieparker]

I have also not found the drop chords concept helpful and it is cumbersome with a lot of cognitive overhead. I read a lot about them, got the Roni Ben Hur educational video about them, etc. Could never figure out how to make it useful. Part of it is that it is the inverse of the normal construction of chords, which goes from bass to soprano, by dropping notes down an octave. To me, when I look at a "drop" chord, what I see is a root position chord with one or more notes raised rather than dropped. Ditto with inversions. It's easier to think about raising the 3rd (CGBE instead of CEGB) an octave. And then doing drop chords of inversions and etc., oy vey!

Guitar chord grips are just what they are in order to be manageable, because we can't play two notes on one string simultaneously and there's only so far you can spread your fingers before you're gonna hurt something. Those grips may end up being a drop 2, drop 3, drop 2&3, drop 2&4, etc., but to me that's just a coincidence enforced by the nature of the guitar.

But whatever works for anybody in particular is whatever works for them. If somebody can manage drop chords and play successfully, more power to them.

I'm not advocating to know how to spell all your chord grips, but more to just use your chord grips as a basis for notes to use. You don't really need to know if it is a drop whatever. I'm trying to simplify.