Barry Harris Method and The Paradox of Learning Improvisation

[GuyBoden]

Yes, but I would present the different # of string patterns major root to root first before working out all the 3 string rotations. Bc it's all informed by the parent scale.

The caveat to all of this IMO is don't spend more then 1/4 of your practice time on unmusical exercises/mapping bc all other practices informs your conception/knowledge of where the notes are, what the shapes are.

Yes, I agree, I practiced all the string sets many years ago in all keys. Including Mm, Hm and all their modes. (Laborious, but I was much younger.)

I was only trying to highlight the fact that 'One Octave Patterns' means different things to different people.

[PMB]

One Octave patterns will be at least 7 patterns. (Beware P4)

Yes/No?

Attachment 118038

Patterns #7 & 1 and #3 & 4 are effectively the same. Remove #7 & 4 and the basic pentatonic nature of CAGED-based scale forms becomes immediately apparent.

[GuyBoden]

Patterns #7 & 1 and #3 & 4 are effectively the same. Remove #7 & 4 and the basic pentatonic nature of CAGED-based scale forms becomes immediately apparent.

Yes, I'm sure that was recognised by many players.

[PMB]

Similarly, if all the possible single-octave CAGED fingerings are played across the board, the 7 octaves reduce to 5 positions. It's interesting to note the alternating fingering sequence with the first note of each scale form played by 2nd then 4th fingers.

[pauln]

Any help is appreciated!

StringAddict,
I suggest focusing on the one primary, central, organizing idea "internalization", of the tune, of your vocabulary, of your technique.
For all three domains, internalization means not just learning or memorizing, but knowing... in different keys, tempos, styles, band instrumentation... different substitutions, patterns and passing chords, chord melody, accompaniment, octaves, other ways of expressing... things' referents, applications, derivatives, relationships, connections, overlaps, constraints...
Recognizing internalization is the feeling that the level of effort, memory recall, and calculations are transforming into a more effortless, immediate, and trustworthy simple aesthetic musical judgement.

[bediles]

Similarly, if all the possible single-octave CAGED fingerings are played across the board, the 7 octaves reduce to 5 positions. It's interesting to note the alternating fingering sequence with the first note of each scale form played by 2nd then 4th fingers.

Alternating 3 string and four string one octave patterns. These are two of the three ways to play a major scale in position without streching a maj3rd ... the other being the stretch fingering. The same is true for the modes within a CAGED shape. In your root on the 6th string, 3rd fret shape (E shape, if you will) you have G ionian (3 string), A dorian (4 string), B phrygian (3 string) etc...

There's only two shapes once you understand the logic of the g/b string transition.

[RaneyJR]

This is going to sound a bit controversial but for me Barry's solo and scale system - in terms of his lines - is a bit of facsimile of what he really does to produce jazz solos. And to see some of his disciples torturously adhere to them - with chromatics and on and off the beat rules feels a little nuts to me.

To be clear, chord-wise his minor 6th concepts as they apply to ballads and chord phrases is much more grounded to his system. Generally because chords and harmony really are systems. Plus it also grounds chromatic movements to something that can be transmitted to students rather than - this stuff I did that sounded really good to me, I don't know why.

But soloing is a bit like the "singer over that system". Barry is a “syntactical” player solo wise. For example the way he scats his solos is closer to how he really thinks about his lines. His scatting reflects his absorption into being around bebop since it’s early days. It’s almost like a dialect with a touch of slang, the lines have a bebop “accent”.


Imagine it this way, imagine it’s Spanish (if you’re an English speaker). When you’re trying to speak Spanish you have the “sounds” of Spanish phrases in your head - NOT the grammar, prepositions, etc. You try to sound like a Spanish person with all the inflections and style needed. You pre-imagine what you’re going to say before you say it. In time this becomes quick and automatic. This is the same thing with jazz solos, only it’s no words just scat syllables. He learned his language socially not theoretically. Since I’m often praised by Spanish speakers as really speaking well I attribute it to this. Not the studies in school which I’ve long since forgotten. Only the stuff of frequent usage with Spanish speakers and memory stay with me.


As far as Jimmy Raney’s concepts of “editing”. He did a fair amount of solo composing on the side to help develop the craftsmanship of solo composition and the solo art but was very judicious about allowing the moment to come to him where these studied concept “bled into the moment” indirectly NOT verbatim. He described planned ideas as “stitched in” and inferior to the spontaneous ones. It’s a very subtle distinction.


Another analogy is writers. They may actually do full character studies of the people in their stories then not write a lick of the information in the actual novel. It’s the over preparation and the latent influence of the unsaid but experienced that comes through.


Yet another analogy, the submerged side of the visible iceberg. It’s always there just below the surface.


To address the original O.P:

Your practice time is essentially hyperlinking to those bits of things that you didn’t quite grasp, fleshing them out until they are automatic. Then it’s back to the current moment where none of that matters because you worked it out.

Your success in playing is your ability to dialogue with yourself honestly with the ideas you have in your head and keep the ball rolling, getting ahead of the music so more aesthetic feelings and creativity can find their way in. If you’re behind the music in a way or self-critiquing, nervous or not listening you’re going to get lost. All the concepts are good to study on the side. But then you have to forget about that and just give in and shut your mind up. It's tough for sure. I won't lie and you can get worse at if you don't confront this fear of fucking up in the moment in front of people.


So if the studied concept overwhelm or don't convince, then simplify your language, try to hear simple ideas in your head and then spend a second to analyze. Once you succeed, then add more things. Don't go for super complex things if you can't really hear them.

I like to think of non-successful soloing as “aesthetic beating” meaning your out of tune with your best and truest ideas. Once you’re in tune with them and delivering you get this happy sensation in your chest. You don’t question it because you just know.

I apologize for over-writing here.

[Christian Miller]

This is going to sound a bit controversial but for me Barry's solo and scale system - in terms of his lines - is a bit of facsimile of what he really does to produce jazz solos. And to see some of his disciples torturously adhere to them - with chromatics and on and off the beat rules feels a little nuts to me.

To be clear, chord-wise his minor 6th concepts as they apply to ballads and chord phrases is much more grounded to his system. Generally because chords and harmony really are systems. Plus it also grounds chromatic movements to something that can be transmitted to students rather than - this stuff I did that sounded really good to me, I don't know why.

But soloing is a bit like the "singer over that system". Barry is a “syntactical” player solo wise. For example the way he scats his solos is closer to how he really thinks about his lines. His scatting reflects his absorption into being around bebop since it’s early days. It’s almost like a dialect with a touch of slang, the lines have a bebop “accent”.


Imagine it this way, imagine it’s Spanish (if you’re an English speaker). When you’re trying to speak Spanish you have the “sounds” of Spanish phrases in your head - NOT the grammar, prepositions, etc. You try to sound like a Spanish person with all the inflections and style needed. You pre-imagine what you’re going to say before you say it. In time this becomes quick and automatic. This is the same thing with jazz solos, only it’s no words just scat syllables. He learned his language socially not theoretically. Since I’m often praised by Spanish speakers as really speaking well I attribute it to this. Not the studies in school which I’ve long since forgotten. Only the stuff of frequent usage with Spanish speakers and memory stay with me.


As far as Jimmy Raney’s concepts of “editing”. He did a fair amount of solo composing on the side to help develop the craftsmanship of solo composition and the solo art but was very judicious about allowing the moment to come to him where these studied concept “bled into the moment” indirectly NOT verbatim. He described planned ideas as “stitched in” and inferior to the spontaneous ones. It’s a very subtle distinction.


Another analogy is writers. They may actually do full character studies of the people in their stories then not write a lick of the information in the actual novel. It’s the over preparation and the latent influence of the unsaid but experienced that comes through.


Yet another analogy, the submerged side of the visible iceberg. It’s always there just below the surface.


To address the original O.P:

Your practice time is essentially hyperlinking to those bits of things that you didn’t quite grasp, fleshing them out until they are automatic. Then it’s back to the current moment where none of that matters because you worked it out.

Your success in playing is your ability to dialogue with yourself honestly with the ideas you have in your head and keep the ball rolling, getting ahead of the music so more aesthetic feelings and creativity can find their way in. If you’re behind the music in a way or self-critiquing, nervous or not listening you’re going to get lost. All the concepts are good to study on the side. But then you have to forget about that and just give in and shut your mind up. It's tough for sure. I won't lie and you can get worse at if you don't confront this fear of fucking up in the moment in front of people.


So if the studied concept overwhelm or don't convince, then simplify your language, try to hear simple ideas in your head and then spend a second to analyze. Once you succeed, then add more things. Don't go for super complex things if you can't really hear them.

I like to think of non-successful soloing as “aesthetic beating” meaning your out of tune with your best and truest ideas. Once you’re in tune with them and delivering you get this happy sensation in your chest. You don’t question it because you just know.

I apologize for over-writing here.

Thanks for your post RaneyJR

I tend to agree, as an on and off Barry student. It seems to me music students often have a a tendency to latch on to systems, and while systems are useful they are not as you say the whole story.

Quite an important - nay, central - part of his teaching was listening to him scat phrases and then repeat them back. He'd explain what governed his note choices, but the shape of the phrase was coming from and as you say the intuitive, prosodic side.

I actually found when I spent a couple of years digging deep into the added note stuff and so on, my playing ended up sounding a bit square. I think they are great exercises, but the actual music is a bit more wild and woolly.

[djg]

This is going to sound a bit controversial but for me Barry's solo and scale system - in terms of his lines - is a bit of facsimile of what he really does to produce jazz solos. And to see some of his disciples torturously adhere to them - with chromatics and on and off the beat rules feels a little nuts to me.

To be clear, chord-wise his minor 6th concepts as they apply to ballads and chord phrases is much more grounded to his system. Generally because chords and harmony really are systems. Plus it also grounds chromatic movements to something that can be transmitted to students rather than - this stuff I did that sounded really good to me, I don't know why.

it clearly demonstrates the two aspects of bop being folk music and afro-american classical music at the same time, doesnt it? the "classical" piano player doing all those beautiful moves. and otoh the horn-style soloist speaking slang. barry perfectly represented both worlds.

[pamosmusic]

As far as Jimmy Raney’s concepts of “editing”. He did a fair amount of solo composing on the side to help develop the craftsmanship of solo composition and the solo art but was very judicious about allowing the moment to come to him where these studied concept “bled into the moment” indirectly NOT verbatim. He described planned ideas as “stitched in” and inferior to the spontaneous ones. It’s a very subtle distinction.

Ah yeah. I feel like if I could pinpoint one thing where I started getting better quicker, it was when I realized that I shouldn’t expect the things I practice to literally come out in my playing.

[Navdeep_Singh]

Systems are valuable in terms of mapping out and mastering the physical instrument, the fingerboard.
I have to the entire fingerboard mapped out and somewhat internalized, using BH 6th diminished system plus, basically 3 frets apart (i., minor thirds). Barry people know the significance of minor 3rd symmetry . I am on my way to play any TUNE (n.b, didn’t say scale-arpeggio-pattern) anywhere on the fingerboard, in any key, using lines-chords-clusters-dyads up and down as I go across, across as I go up and down.

It’s not magic, or some formula you just add water to, and boom! No, it’s months, now years of making sense of BH’s system.

To me, the goal is FREEDOM. BH means freedom. Benny Green relayed a story about not knowing the changes to a tune, being taken aside by Barry, and learning how to play anything anywhere. I’m sure to Benny this meant a ton. I’m sure it meant playing with musical freedom.

[RaneyJR]

Ah yeah. I feel like if I could pinpoint one thing where I started getting better quicker, it was when I realized that I shouldn’t expect the things I practice to literally come out in my playing.

Right, I think in the Inner Game of Tennis, Timothy Galway talked about this. It's the expectation of success that kills the success. The ultimate irony.

[joe2758]

But I gave up hope a long time ago and still suck

[RaneyJR]

But I gave up hope a long time ago and still suck

Humility is always a good baseline So you probably don't suck as much as you think

Unless being self-critical causes paralysis.

In which case you just need a shrink to tell you to chill that shit out

[Navdeep_Singh]

To me, I never used BH for melody and lines, the half step rules and so forth. Melody is an art, the best way to follow your melodic muse, to me, is to be as prepared as possible, to have so much ingrained as possible. IN that respect, melody is tied to rhythm, and I think that Dizzy and his late great musical director and pianist, Mike Longo (RIP), got it right. Hell, Mike changed James Moody’s approach, that’s saying something!

Barry’s lines and 5432 and so forth are valuable in so far as having SOMETHING To play, ready, without thinking. We remain afloat in the times as we calculate our next strokes in the musical water.

No, BH is all about the systemic harmonic edifice, how To generate a way of thinking of harmony and chords that maps readily to our instrument, so we can get on with the good stuff.

[RaneyJR]

To me, I never used BH for melody and lines, the half step rules and so forth. Melody is an art, the best way to follow your melodic muse, to me, is to be as prepared as possible, to have so much ingrained as possible. IN that respect, melody is tied to rhythm, and I think that Dizzy and his late great musical director and pianist, Mike Longo (RIP), got it right. Hell, Mike changed James Moody’s approach, that’s saying something!

No, BH is all about the systemic harmonic edifice, how To generate a way of thinking of harmony and chords that maps readily to our instrument, so we can get on with the good stuff.

The proof really is in the pudding. If you can play good solos and have that confirmed by people that you know are really good (or great which is even better). The best players usually are not adherents to one thing or another. Plenty of them who didn't study with Barry or know his system. But maybe they play things that overlap the concepts.

and yes, rhythm is the bigger deal. Do you have good time and good feel. You can have all the notes, but if that ain't happening forget it. Even less knowledgeable listener can feel that something is off.

[Heybopper]

I spent a lot of time on rhythm. quavers through a tune at slow tempos and keep going without a break start as slow as you need and really outline the changes. Do it with just a metronome and ask can you hear the changes in your single lines. Start with easy tunes like blue Bossa or autumn leaves.
Then do triplets through a tune, then semi quavers, then maybe fives, then maybe even triplets (six notes a bar).
If you can do your arpeggios in these rhythms then try doing them through the tunes.
Nothing has to be fast start around 70-80bpm and stay in time and keep going dont stop.
You'll have to give an example of non diatonic harmony. For me most pre 50s is diatonic and even the strangest of changes can be analysed in some way to relate to theory. Im not very good at non diatonic stuff but most standards are ok.
For a long while some people used too criticise my playing and say that it just sounds like endless exercises. but I got compliments too. I think thats just a phase. If you spend hours on excursuses then thats probably what you will sound like, eventually that will change.
As for how long it takes to get something into your playing, well. I spoke to a great sax player, he said at least six months. I find somethings can happen that quick other things take a lot longer. Ive been working on lots of things over the last year and some things still dont come out on gigs but im sure they will.
Perhaps if your like me and you work on a lot of things at once, say 4 or 5 concepts then it will take longer to come out.
You think you will never remember it all but you will if you keep doing it. im amazed at how much the mind can take in but you do have to rest once a week ive found that very important too. Thats how the mind sorts it all out for you.

[RaneyJR]

So you might notice, I'm a little obsessed lately with this spoken language <--> soloing link I perceive in jazz.

For those of you interested I put a bit more meat on those bones here in a substack article.

Cheers,

Jon

[pamosmusic]

So you might notice, I'm a little obsessed lately with this spoken language <--> soloing link I perceive in jazz.

For those of you interested I put a bit more meat on those bones here in a substack article.

Cheers,

Jon

I really enjoyed this, thank you.

Makes sense Jimmy Raney would be into EB White.

[RaneyJR]

I really enjoyed this, thank you.

Makes sense Jimmy Raney would be into EB White.

Humorists were his thing generally. James Thurber was his favorite. Also Ogden Nash, George F. Kaufman and more recently Jean Shepherd


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