-
When I sit and play at home I (spontaneously) play quite nice and novel lines but I have problems translating, or even using these lines when I am on stage.
Apart from the obvious "play more" and "play with others", what tips can you give me to help me to the next step of improvisation?
-
10-03-2024 04:38 AM
-
My two-cents without know any other details, I would say, start off by taking one song and really internalize it. Learn the melody, chords, chord melody (best you can), etc... (i.e. make it second nature) then start applying four note lines based off of triads that are diatonic to the chords (1-3-5, or 3-5-7, or 5-7-9, etc). The goal is to make the song, and playing lines over the one song "second nature". Eventually you will start to see those lines you are creating appear in your playing in other things. Good luck.
-
Improvisation, imo, should be spontaneous. If you've really internalised the tune then just get up there and do your thing. That's the next step.
“First you learn the instrument, then you learn the music, then you forget all that s**t and just play.”
Charlie Parker
-
The following helped me with bringing more structure to my ideas and ears. That doesn't mean that some days I don't have better ideas than others but the goal is to practice in a way that I am never completely in the dark and always have some basic structures to build musical ideas with. These also facilitate getting inside tunes and therefore help with finding inspiration in a less hit and miss manner.
- Play 8th note voice-lead arpeggios through the changes of the tunes you learn everywhere on the fretboard.
- Learn the progressions in a numerical system (Nashville system, harmonic analysis etc).
- Learn the melody in a way that each note is intervallically related to the chord in the moment.
- Learn a system for mapping scales to harmony. This could be anything from all-out chord scales to more generalized systems like Barry Harris, Joe Pass or Pat Martino.
- Make sure you can play 8th note scales (based on the system chosen above) voice-lead through the changes at tempo.
Bonus:
- Bring your chord vocabulary to a level where you can harmonize the melody on the fly. Drop 2 based systems are a good start.
I didn't discover any of these practice ideas. There is a long list of master jazz musicians who teach improvisation in a way that include all the items above.
Yes, these require a serious commitment. But I believe the idea that one can learn jazz improvisation without a serious commitment is a fallacy.Last edited by Tal_175; 10-03-2024 at 10:30 AM.
-
And you CANNOT be afraid of what may happen...
-
This is a great list. Some modifications or additions:
Yeah this one is evergreen. It’s a lot of work but I had a teacher tell me to do this in college and I’ve gotten more interesting with it but I still do it most days. Cool new chord change? Substitution idea? This is sort of the first step nuts and bolts for anything you might want to do. And when it gets easy, you can just make tougher restrictions … different rhythm values, string sets, range restrictions, etc.
Originally Posted by Tal_175
Yeah, I would also suggest looking for patterns and stuff stat. I recommend Christians videos on this stuff all the time because they’re top notch. Barry stuff of course is tough for a beginner but incredible with helping identify these patterns in the progressions and stuff.Learn the progressions in a numerical system (Nashville system, harmonic analysis etc).
This one maybe I don’t love. Feels a little too cerebral maybe? Not a bad idea, but singing it, or singing bass notes under it while you play would maybe be a better idea?- Learn the melody in a way that each note is intervallically related to the chord in the moment.
Another idea I have been using constantly lately is super simple. Just pick an area and play the melody for four bars, then improvise for four, melody for four, etc. Then repeat but start with four of improvising. Repeat both but with groups of two measures. Try odd pairings … one and three, five measure chunks, whatever.
Super good for helping really really internalize the melody and where the phrases fall in the form, but also forces you to be nearby the melody. Makes your improvising more melody adjacent and your melody a little looser and freer.
I just started doing it as an experiment when I was listening to the Open Studio podcast on Live at the Pershing and Adam said “Ahmad is never more than three measures from the melody.” And I was like … let’s see if I can do that literally. And it turns out it’s super cool.
Totally. That’s an interesting thought too. The “mapping scales to harmony” part being the bit that we forget a lot of the time. Maybe just be careful not to get too hung up on it chord by chord, but that would be a benefit of working on seeing patterns and chunks in those chords.- Learn a system for mapping scales to harmony. This could be anywhere from all-out chord scales to more generalized systems like Barry Harris, Joe Pass or Pat Martino.
Chopschopschopschops- Make sure you can play 8th note scales (based on the system chosen above) voice-lead through the changes at tempo.
Only thing I would add is learn some solos. Miles. Red Garland right hand. Never underestimate how often “confidence” can be reduced to “time and vocabulary.”
-
Yeah, I was gonna qualify that item a bit because it does sound too mechanical but I didn't want to make the post too long. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
I like relating melody to chords because that way I learn the chords and melody of tunes together as one rather than separately. That to me is just learning the tune. When I practice playing the melody in different parts of the fretboard, I don't do it pure mechanically by my knowledge of how the melody relates to chords intervallically. I work on doing it both purely by ear and purely by relating the melody to a chord voicing in that area. Each way teaches me something different.
Cool, that's a good idea. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
Last edited by Tal_175; 10-03-2024 at 10:25 AM.
-
If you really like the lines you are playing in your idle noodling sorts of times, I'd suggest taking one and playing it enough that you can play it easily any time, it doesn't slip away. Maybe notate it just for fun; but then decide what kind of harmony or chord it fits. Is it a dominant idea? A major idea? Minor? Maybe record a backing track just vamping on the chord and play your line over it. Then find a tune you know and if your line is, say, a dominant related line, use the line over the dominant chords in that tune.
-
Record yourself. Learn your own licks.
-
Chet Baker. Just listen to this intro. Perfect. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
-
Originally Posted by lawson-stone
2nd Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
-
It sounds like it's also performance related. You have stuff inside you, but you have a hard time getting it out on stage. That's totally common, and there's tons of information and tips out there to help. Originally Posted by nbevan3
For me, it's about making the transition from normal, every day brain to that heightened state of performing. Once I'm in the mindspace it flows, but getting into that mindspace can be tricky.
One thing I do is, before going on stage, is imagine how I'm going to walk out, pick up my instrument, and start playing. I visualize walking out slowly and relaxed, taking a second before picking up my instrument, then what I'm going to start with. I can be really self-conscious and nervous before, that it's a way to shut out that, concentrate on the task at hand, and get into the mindspace where I'm inside the music.
Another trick is to be warmed up, like really warmed up, where I've already been playing for a while before hand. That depends on if there is a place to go, and what the social scene is and if I have to be sociable beforehand. But I think most people understand that a musician needs to concentrate and prepare before.
Of course we're all different. My tips might sound woo woo to you! Some people just get stoned. That would be a disaster for me, but it really works for someone I used to play with a lot.
-
Look at step 3 and see if it makes sense to you. Originally Posted by nbevan3
0] Improvising at home in isolation without context
This is improvising lines, phrases, riffs, licks, motifs, themes, etc., often without harmonic context just to get up one's chops prior to integrating them as improvisational supporting vocabulary.
1] Improvising at home listening to recordings
This provides a context, but it is a fixed determined context (the context will be the same if you repeat with the same recording - why a lot like to collect different recordings of the same tune). You learn a lot but it's nothing like on stage with others.
2] Improvising on stage with others
This is a context that will be different each time for each tune, so the deterministic nature of a recording is overcome. This is the complex context musical judgement is developed and tested (your selection of what to execute from your creative stream of ideas) because you only "get one chance", the show must go on.
3] Improvising at home without recordings
This is a context that combines the introspection and examination of improvising at home with the development and testing of created musical ideas without regard to selection pressure of the stage.
This means learning to hear the tune in your head and improvising. You learn to hear the bass line, the melody, the harmony (and hear your own made-up variations, reharmonizations, chord patterns, etc.) as context for improvising. This will do good things:
- internalization of tunes' form, progression patterns, and variations
- recognition of chord types, inversions, voicing
- connection of your musical ideas to the tunes through your own mind, directly and internally because both the tunes and your ideas are being produced from the same mental place, comprised of the same mental stuff.
It's not "better" than stage performance, but it allows "stopping time" to examine what can't be done during a live show (other than a mental note to examine it later). The best is always the show.
-
First off, I think it's common to find that you play differently in different situations. At home is easy. At home, with a bassist, a little harder. At home with a full band, harder still. Small gig, harder ... etc.
In thinking about how to improve in performance, my thinking goes toward trying to figure out what the obstacle is. If you're happy with what you can play at home, then it doesn't sound like the problem is in theory or chops (although, it does depend on exactly what you're doing at home).
Next thought is, can you play the way you want to at a friendly jam? Is the problem just on a gig?
And, if the answer isn't clear, recording yourself is an excellent idea (thx MrB). Or, arrange a group lesson (for your band, if you have one) and see if the teacher can help figure it out.
-
This is easy. You haven't done enough gigs.
-
I would agree, coming up on gig number 25 for this year. It all smooths out the more you do it. I used to read charts on stage but stopped that about 2 months ago, but I'm the bandleader so we play what I call, and I only call what I know. Originally Posted by DawgBone
-
I used to wonder why Lucky Peterson had this kinda dumbass grin on his face the whole time he was playing. Like a fake smile almost permanently plastered on when he had a guitar in his hands. I finally figured out the smile was to help keep him relaxed. If you are smiling, you are having a good time. If you are having a good time, you are relaxed. If you are relaxed, you play like you do when you are at home; freely, and easily, without worry of mistakes. I believe it's a scientific fact that if you just put on a smile,it will tend to make you feel happier and therefore relaxed. I tried smiling more at gigs and lo and behold I had some pretty good shows!!! Originally Posted by AllanAllen
You gotta make that stage feel the same way your home does. Like all the audience are chill friends you invited over and we are all having a good time together. That's my approach. Still working on it. I haven't done enough gigs either but I am closing in on some lifetime level playing goals I had for myself like 25 years ago, lol.
-
You have hit the nail on the head there! Originally Posted by supersoul
Thank you
-
NOBODY has ever done enough gigs! Originally Posted by DawgBone
-
True but once you've done a thousand or two your playing and entertainment skills are finely honed....until you stop playing more gigs. Originally Posted by nbevan3
Reply With Quote
“Shearing style”
Yesterday, 05:26 PM in Comping, Chords & Chord Progressions