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Tell me about it! If I don’t move in slow motion and scan 360 degrees while doing so, I either impale a kidney on the ride cymbal rod or smack my headstock on a boom stand. Those speakers are so big that you can’t see me in most of the videos - and I’m 6’2” with 36” arms.
Originally Posted by wintermoon
I’ve tried and failed for 15 years to get the house sound system pared down - it’s followed us through the last 3 venues in which the club’s been located. We don’t need enough wattage to light Minneapolis. The footer monitors are more powerful than the entire system at most large clubs - and since we use IEMs, we don’t even need them.
In all fairness, the house sound is excellent. But the system is truly unnecessary and a waste of money, space, and energy. Less would truly be more.
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03-16-2022 09:12 PM
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Seems like a really great guy that wants the best for his club but that's a bit much. I mentioned it to George when I subbed for you and he rolled his eyes. But I'll take those Eons off his hands if he changes his mind. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
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As overkill as it is how many club owners have we worked for that didn't give a flying bleep about having any system let alone a good one. So there's that....but yeah I felt pretty claustrophobic up there
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It’s interesting to watch musicians’ response to all that stuff. The kW+ triamped bass rig has a 21” bin and sounds like the thumping of an annoying low rider next to you at a stoplight unless the bass player knows how to tame it (which many do not). All the whomping from the bass amps and house sound system really gets in the way if you have good hearing. Originally Posted by wintermoon
As with most things, there’s a happy medium to be found. I try to do the best with what I have
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A weekly w great equipment. In the end, hard to complain.... Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
It’s interesting to watch musicians’ response to all that stuff. The kW+ triamped bass rig has a 21” bin and sounds like the thumping of an annoying low rider next to you at a stoplight unless the bass player knows how to tame it (which many do not). All the whomping from the bass amps and house sound system really gets in the way if you have good hearing.
As with most things, there’s a happy medium to be found. I try to do the best with what I have
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Back to the topic of Jazz amp future… Originally Posted by pingu
Tried the Bam out a few ways at home at least. Once through a 12” Celestion g30h, once through headphones straight and once through a pair of floor standing HIFI speakers wired in series to 8ohm FRFR ultimately.
through the Celestion great, especially with the paradriver in front followed by a HOF mini.
headphones were a tad fizzy on their own, the para driver helped, a tech21 blonde after the para helped with its (basic) cab sim took it up a level.
the floor standers with the para and a cab sim like in the blonde is outstanding.
In a small room you will hear at very low volumes the fan whine. Like 35dB type quiet. When playing I could not. I think most class D amps have this fan property until the get to a physical package size. My tube amp has equivalent background hum at idle.
All in all when paired up well, these light portable and cost effective amps are gems.
I find on the Bam the gain at 10 is enough to soften its attack. YMMV
Yet to try a tube based pre but at clean low volume doubting the impact at the moment to be honest.
I did not buy it for wall of sound gain volumes- but as a jazz amp alternative
hope this helps someone
cheers
EMike
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Which one? Please do report on the in and out gain settings you use; I did some tinkering with my Tube MP yesterday and couldn't actually tell an effect of changing the output (tube) gain other than its effect on the output level... Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
BTW, that stage picture ... what are the rules for social distancing between performers and public in that venue - looks like they could (or should?) be at 200m to get that smooth listening experience
That's one reason I rarely go to gigs unless I know there's a sound guy who does NOT think that this is what the public (or the musicians) want. You don't even actually *hear* (as in with your ears) those sound; you perceive them via your diaphragm (and since anxiety and intestinal perturbation are closely linked -for me at least- I can't take much of it too long if that signal gets too strong).All the whomping from the bass amps and house sound system really gets in the way if you have good hearing.
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I guess one could say that that sound system has a lot of headroom. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
It’s interesting to watch musicians’ response to all that stuff. The kW+ triamped bass rig has a 21” bin and sounds like the thumping of an annoying low rider next to you at a stoplight unless the bass player knows how to tame it (which many do not). All the whomping from the bass amps and house sound system really gets in the way if you have good hearing.
As with most things, there’s a happy medium to be found. I try to do the best with what I have
Here in Berlin there is a techno club called Berghain which has one of the world's best sound systems for that type of music. I've never been there for techno, but a few years ago the CTM festival held some classical music concerts in the space. I went to see Iancu Dumitrescu and Ana-Marie Avram (Romanian spectralist composers). They amplified a string ensemble through the sound system. After some initial feedback problems it began to sound quite glorious. The bass bins were probably the size of an SUV tipped to point straight up.
That is quite a digression from the future of guitar amplification. I guess I can tie it in by saying that I've had good/interesting experiences playing through bass rigs. The voicing for bass guitar can work really well with the guitar, especially if the bass controls are adjusted down. I think there's something about having more bass headroom that keeps the ice-picky treble harshness from happening. Perhaps the larger bass speaker/cabinet also gives a sort of natural compression.
This is a cool thread.
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My experience is that ....
Bass amps
Keyboard Amps
Acoustic Amps (eg AER)
Jazz guitar amps (Henriksen etc)
and PA systems
are all Flat Full Range systems
(or thereabouts)
——————-
Electric Guitar Amps (ac30 , Delux
plexi etc)
meanwhile are different
they’re coloured devices (scooped mids) and crucially are built to distort nicely ....
——————
we straight ahead jazz players are
lucky because a typical jazz box usually sounds pretty good DI
so if your guitar sounds about right
for the sound what you want
it it makes sense to freely use any/all
of the above amp types
I do that a lot and it works fine
the only reason I want a pre-amp is so i can get a nice bit of crunch on my sound
for the rn’b and soul tunes
but that’s just me ....
others will want different things
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It’s really not. This discussion is the first serious one I’ve encountered suggesting that the future of guitar amplification seems to include no amplifier at all, with more and more of us going to DI and house sound. Joe Pass turns out to have been quite an innovator in his early decision to carry nothing but a DI box on gigs. I’m going to try it on stage tonight with an archtop in trio setting (g,b,d). Originally Posted by supersoul
I actually tried it when I was in high school (1962). My band played for school dances, and we used the Bogen tube PA system with Altec speakers in the gym. I got the idea to plug my guitar into a mic input because my Ampeg Reverberocket was straining to be heard. The mic inputs were those old style screw-on connectors, so I made both an adapter and a dedicated 1/4”-to-screw cable. My guitar sounded fantastic! But the band was unmic’ed and sounded very odd for rock & dance tunes. The beat was muddy because of the natural reverb of the huge space and no way to amplify the bass or drums. The sax player used the stage mic (of which there was only one), so all you could hear was him and me - it even made the music hard to dance to.
We’ve come a long way!
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For me, that’s the way to go - especially for solo jazz and accompanying vocalists. I’ve been using bass amps since 1962, when I got a Magnatone with four 6L6s and four 12” speakers. That became a B15N that I used for about a decade. My current gigging cabinets are a RE Bass 10 and a RevSound RS8 bass cab. Originally Posted by supersoul
The big Leslie with rotors off is the bassiest amp in history, and I use it a lot. It’s so bass heavy that I can’t use it for most blues, though. I have to roll the bass EQ all the way down, even for solo jazz tunes.
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Carrying an amp (of any type) to a gig is more than just getting an optimal sound though. It's also the convenience of placing it next to you, so you can hear yourself however you want to, and change the sound easily in an instant if needed.
No need of agreeing (or disagreeing..) with a sound engineer, no relying on monitors and mixes that can be anything, and all the other things that can happen in a gig situation.
An amp is simple and it works. Now days, with some solid state solutions actually fitting a backpack!, I carry amps even at corporate gigs where I would never bother before..
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+ 1 Originally Posted by Alter
In my experience, guitar amps are really the best solution for amp'ing guitars (who'd a thunk it?). I have a small/light Fender modeling amp that is better than any PA I've played through and (so far, anyway) loud enough for everything I do. Light enough to carry on foot or subway, and I bring it to jams and small gigs all the time.
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Sadly, the stage does not! Between the huge sound systems, the overhead lighting booms, the frame-mounted drum set, and the many mics over it, I rarely get through a set there without whacking a body part on something. Originally Posted by supersoul
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what Fender modelling amp do you use ? Originally Posted by John A.
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Champion 20. Best $89 I ever spent. Originally Posted by pingu
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From my standpoint, black face Fender type amps are scooped in the mids, while AC30's, plexis and tweed amps are not, though they all have different midrange characteristics. Very different preamp topologies. Originally Posted by pingu
There has been a lot of talk about crunchy distortion and tube amps here, and while I like a good crunch once in awhile, I for one just really like the clean sounds, they give a body to the tone and a response that I haven't found in SS, though I admit I haven't tried that many of the new ones.
I tend to think that the main, primary reason folks adopt the SS amps is because of portability. Maybe come prefer the sound, but the search seems to be for the best tube emulation at low weight, which is fine. And since many of us are aging, that is probably the future of guitar amplification. For me, I'm a bit of a luddite and will stick with my tubes for now.
I would like to try some of the new SS ones though to see what I might be missing!
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The "preamp topologies" are not what I would consider "very different", and these three all scoop mids (shown here with knobs at noon, you can play around for yourself — and see the similarities and differences — here: TSC in the web ) Originally Posted by bluejaybill
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That depends on your definition of range. Single driver bass amps start rolling off at or below 5kHz and are many dB down by 6. Guitar amps bump this up by a kHz or so. Sound reinforcement systems are generally full range and fairly flat (without EQ) from the lower to upper limits of their driver arrays. Originally Posted by pingu
Most designated keyboard amps have a tweeter of some kind, usually a small horn type. And amps built for use with acoustic instruments have drivers and electronics with a higher upper rolloff frequency than standard guitar amps. The Henriksen amps and others of similar design have switchable tweeters.
FWIW, the best and most versatile amp I ever used for guitar is the biggest Roland keyboard amp in their line from about 10 years ago (the original incarnation of what’s now the KC600). My jazz group played monthly at the Reading Terminal Market in Philly from 1984 until Covid hit. We had bass, me, and keys plus tenor and vocalists - so we needed one serious amp. The Terminal finally bought us one because we all had day gigs and dragging ours was a real pain for a low paying midday 2 hour gig. They asked what I thought they should get, and I figured they’d cheap out - so I suggested that Roland thinking they’d buy down from it.
I almost fainted when it appeared a few weeks later! These are amazing amps - you can get pretty much whatever sound characteristics you want from it with any guitar, bass, or keyboard. Of course it weighed a ton and cost a fortune, but neither of those was our problem
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yes i was talking about the amps themselves
not the speakers .....
sorry if there was confusion ....
PS 4or 5khz upper range is fine for
electric guitar as you know
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You may well be right, but that is not what I hear, and it is not the reputation that those amps have. I hear both Vox and Marshall as having more mids, maybe I dial them in that way? Originally Posted by thpm
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And here's the rest of the story... Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
I plugged my Ibanez AF207 into my 1st gen ART Tube MP preamp and ran the XLR balanced out to the board. Through my IEMs, the guitar sounded fine to me - but it wasn't the richly dramatic fountain of goodness for which I'd hoped. I truly think the tone through the DVM Jazz 12 is as good. But everyone in the house said it sounded fantastic, including the sound guy (who's the club owner and bass player in our blues band, but he doesn't play any jazz). My hearing is clearly more acute than his, and I'm going to go back to the Jazz 12 (which, like the rest of our backline, is mic'ed) so I can cut my highs to offset his preferred house EQ.
I set up my TASCAM DR40x on a stand sitting on the board table at the far back of the room to capture the first few tunes. As we're still getting used to working with IEMs and no stage monitors, I've been a bit distracted from my playing by the combined feelings & fears that if I move the wrong way, I'll either pull an IEM out of my ear (which I've already done a few times) or strangle myself. But that's getting better. Here's the first tune - hear it for yourself:
I had both input and output gain knobs set at about 1 o'clock. Even cranking the input gain all the way up, I get no distortion using this guitar through the MP. The active EMG in my FrankenPaul 7 will push its input into some crunch, but the Alumibuckers in my Tele will not. Originally Posted by RJVB
Believe it or not, the stock pickup in an AF207 is a Dimarzio Blaze. It's at least moderately more bright and hot than a modern PAF clone, and I've been looking for a replacement to give me a fuller jazz tone. I can't find a PAF style 7 with mounting screw distance closer than 0.1" to the Blaze's, and I may have to open the wood mounting ring on the AF a bit to take a covered one. So I'm going to have to compromise somewhere. But even the Blaze isn't hot enough to overdrive the ART. Obviously, no peamp will drive a house sound system like this one into distortion - so I use a Wampler Tumnus if I want some OD.Last edited by nevershouldhavesoldit; 03-18-2022 at 10:29 PM.
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This does it for me. Handles most things and if I need to be louder, I have 2 Quilter 101 minis and an extra speaker that I can bring.
So I am happy. I like my sound and it is very portable.
That said, I suffer from severe GAS and spend way too much time looking for improvements to my rig. Perhaps I need to try a tube amp again, but then I would not like to sacrifice the light weight... Suggestions are very welcome.Last edited by Mogens Fosgerau; 03-19-2022 at 04:27 AM. Reason: Revise text
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Thanks, Mogens! With all those signal mutilators, I don't think a tube amp would make much difference. My wishlist includes a SuperBlock+ with just a wee bit more power and headroom. The current US version (btw again sold out from Thomann for 7-9 weeks) is plenty loud with sensitive 10"-12" speakers, but a bit lacking with less sensitive 6.5"-8" speakers, which require 2-3X more power for a given SPL. Also, while there's no doubt about Pat Quilter's ingenuity as an amp designer, perhaps his personal taste for guitar tone comes through a bit too loud and clear (pun intended). Western swing, steel, country twang, surf - the traditional Fender blackface tone universe replicated. My fave setting is the -57 Tweed, which lacks the midrange scoop and offers more clean headroom. Treble at around 10, mids at noon and bass at 2 pm.
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Hi Markku,
I agree complete re the superblock, it would be nice with a bit more power for less sensitive speakers. Another improvement would be to integrate the PSU, it is ok when the amp is permanent on a bit but a bit clumsy otherwise.
I tend to like the 65 voicing with everything more or less at noon, gain up to where it just breaks up slightly when I play a loud chord.
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