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I am pretty uninterested in your opinions about anything as they seem hateful and deeply flawed. But I will respond to your poorly reasoned conclusions on this forum, utilizing my experience and education as I see fit.
Originally Posted by ptchristopher3
Have a nice day.
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02-04-2018 09:09 PM
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Butt-hurt fan boy it seems. (My analysis of your opinion.)
Great that you love your guitars. Definitely established that you are happy with them, really.
Absolutely.
Without a doubt.
Not sure that renders other observations invalid.
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I fix up guitars here and there but the amount of Gibsons I have seen in stores it what informs my opinion on Gibson’s quality control (or lack thereof). Although your theory that people who repair guitars will see more Gibsons with problems, that would apply to all other brands because if someone is bringing a guitar in for anything other than a setup there is obviously going to be a problem with it. PT is also saying that he is seeing the problem Gibson in stores and he and I are not the only two people who have said this so I don’t see a reason to call his opinion “deeply flawed”. Unless I am misunderstanding what this is about.
It’s great that you had good luck getting good Gibsons from CME. That does not invalidate the guitars that so many people have seen hanging on store walls that shouldn’t have left he factory and using your experience to say that is not true for some reason is putting your head in the sand. This isn’t a matter of not trusting what one person says, it is many many people seeing guitars being sold that should not have been shipped to stores to begin with. And as I said in the other thread I have seen guitars from other manufacturers with problems but nothing matching the amount of Gibsons I have seen and none matching the severity of the worst ones I have see for sale with problems.
Is the Gibson factory on an old Indian burial ground or something? Something about discussing Gibson really brings out hostility in people it seems. Or maybe just a very deep love of the guitars, which I kind of get since I love the idea of Gibson, the sound of Gibson and the feel of a good Gibson but I can’t ignore a seemingly basic thing like bad guitars getting shipped and pretend it isn’t happening. Although maybe if I had never seen one somehow I wouldn’t believe it either, since good Gibsons are great and it is actually hard to believe that they ship fundamentally flawed guitars next to really good ones.
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that's nothing. Try working the street for 30 years! Originally Posted by Stringswinger
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I have owned scores of Gibson guitars and played dozens more. My experience is that the factory setups are not to my liking, but that is a matter of taste. Have I seen and played duds? Sure. But a small amount compared to the good ones. Perhaps some posters here (like yourself) have had an overly negative experience and you are well within your rights to express those experiences here, but when a guy posts stuff like: Originally Posted by rio
Originally Posted by ptchristopher3 
Looking at the guitars they send to dealers it appears that they put a spoon where the cutting bit goes on the PLEK then put a hamster running back and forth on a keyboard to instruct the machine.
It is simply hateful "Gibson bashing". And I hate "hate" speech
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The place seems humorless about brand fanaticism?
Gibson demonstrates remarkable sloppiness while ostensiblly using a PLEK.
I do not actually think they use spoons to make guitars.
Tedious fandom.
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The repeat high E slot errors could be from a poorly made jig or reference tool. But it looks also like a poorly set up PLEK instruction for cutting the nut slots. The consistency of the mistake is remarkable, thus we can hope it was at least a single mistake propagated through automation vs. true talent for disaster.
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The very fine chipping I have seen at the front edges of Memphis nuts is new to me. I can only guess this might be part of the PLEK cutting process. But this is only speculation based on just how novel it is to have these chips.
What I can not understand is how the fret ends get so absurdly rounded off on most but not all of them. I found a couple of ES Les Pauls that were not that bad in this regard.
The fret ends and the soft and very very wide taper looks hand done to me.
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That’s an interesting theory and would make a lot of sense. I don’t know anything about production numbers but at least that specific problem would also explain why they let those guitars out of the factory, if it was in high enough numbers to have been a financial burden to redo the nuts on a high number of guitars. I would also wonder how many batches got out like that since I would assume and hope that someone would have noticed that right away and consciously let those guitars out into stores. I mean that is messed up to not fix a problem like that and leave it up to the consumer but still I’d prefer them to intentionally do it than for them really just not having someone carefully inspecting guitars there. Originally Posted by ptchristopher3
I also didn’t know that PLEK machines can do nuts. What else can they do other than frets?
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They started as fret crowners and levelers with one very specific advantage in accuracy that can be very important in some cases, and not particularly beneficial in many cases (vs. traditional methods).
But the automation would be, in my opinion, beneficial on all guitars in a volume production environment.
They later added nut cutting, including slotting - which must be a remarkable benefit in production considering what it takes to make a nut.
My (very possibly incorrect) understanding is that Gibson has the later machine (or machines) that can cut nuts as well.
But you need to tell the machine what to do.
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My speculation regarding the PLEK is just based on the odd consistency regarding the high E slots, and the chipping on the front edge.
Before anyone gets the vapors over this - In my opinion the small chipping on the front edge of some nuts is not at all important to playability. It is just very hard to do with hand tools, but can happen with a rotary cutter. (Try routing for binding sometime with a duller bit or not changing router direction as you come up to the end grain as you round a curve. Ouch.)
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I remember these same sorts of malthusian predictions about jazz and archtops/semi-hollows in the early-80s. With Larry Carlton giving up his 335 for a Valley Arts strat, up-and-coming talent like Mike Stern playing "country guitars" like Telecasters.....Telecasters...for jazz! The letters to the editor in the music magazines declared traditional jazz guitar playing and those big bulky guitars dead. I bought a '67 ES-335 "block neck" for $400 in 1982. The music store in Florida where I bought it had so many on the wall, the guy tried to get me to buy two. Next thing you know...well...they were back.
Also, I'd rather Gibson take a break from producing their higher end archtops and get themselves on more sure footing, rather than to try to just slap them together with poor QC. The 2017 175 I got from CME is such a superb guitar, it shows that Gibson is still more than capable of making very fine instruments. However, they probably need someone other than "King Henry" at the helm.
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I checked and the PLEK (in addition to the fret dressing and nut cutting mentioned already) can now do nut seat cutting, fingerboard planing, fret slot cutting, saddle slot cutting (into an acoustic bridge), saddle notch cutting, and probably a thing or two more that I already forget. Originally Posted by rio
Just how practical each of these functions is, in terms of cost and time saving, would be a question for a production manager.
Tying up a PLEK for fret slotting, for example, might not be the best use of the machine in a small manufacturing environment.
But fret dressing, and nut shaping/slotting seem like great uses for the machine.
In my opinion.
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Seems I recall someone ran a forum survey on how many of the recent Memphis guitars arrived flawed. Seems there was a significant number of concerns. Particularly for an expensive luxury item from a US manufacturer that's so reliant on their branding to generate sales. It would be nice if we had access to hard data and objective metrics. However there is probably more user feedback around here than in most places. And the picture that's emerging from casual observation isn't that great.
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This. I'm friends with a guitar maker that operates a Plek machine. Without a proper setup and good programming, you're better off doing things by hand. Originally Posted by ptchristopher3
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In England that phrase has very Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
that's nothing. Try working the street for 30 years!
different connotations !
May I suggest an elaboration of
it, ? Tho I understand , it might be open
to misinterpretation or facetious comment
LOL
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Originally Posted by silverfoxx
Cop, not hooker.
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Dave's Guitars now a Heritage dealer.
You may be aware that Gibson dropped them last year in what I consider a poor marketing move.
Gibson's loss is Heritage's gain.
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The consensus appears to believe that only
custom built -to order Archtops will only be
available from Gibson. I have no reason to
doubt the opinions voiced here in that respect
It will be a great shame if Archtops will be
marketed in this fashion. Pricing out the
average buyers beyond their means.
Enthusiasts may turn to the private Luthiers
who already can provide guitars on a par or
better than , Gibson, and at a favourable cost.
Selfishly, those of us who have collected some
highly desirable guitars , can hopefully , be
assured that their beloved instrument(s)
will fetch a handsome figure, when our days
are done.
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Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
Cop, not hooker.
Thank you, for stating the obvious, some
of us had already figured that out.
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I would say that it is good news for Heritage but since they are reducing archtop output too maybe not. I would also say it might be good for Ibanez but although they have amazing guitars they don’t have equivalents of the high end carved archtops like the L5, Super 400 etc. - Heritage could have capitalized on that since they did have alternatives but they won’t offer those guitars anymore. Originally Posted by silverfoxx
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I would think that Gibson getting out of the archtop business would be bad for used Gibson values rather than good. As for Heritage, if there is a demand don't think it will take them long to respond. Eastman may also head up market with a few models.
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I have never tried an L5, Super 400 etc, i would at somepoint love to have the opportunity.
If hypothetically speaking in the not to distant future, Gibson offered the carved instruments in 2 or 3 price options available to the player it would be interesting to see how future demand would be, ie.
Option 1. Custom order, built in USA, as it is to today,s specs = top price.
Option 2. Custom order, built in Japan, same specs and quality as USA. = 30% cheaper
Option 3. Japan quality, heavier lacquer finish, still beautiful player. 50% price of USA custom.
All would have the Gibson logo and warranty.
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Since Ibanez never offered those and Heritage stopped offering them .. It seem to me there is nothing to capitalize on. L5s and Super 400s don't really sell, do they? Originally Posted by rio
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Some random thoughts:
Here's hoping they won't, and if they do, someone will bring them back. I want them to be around for as long as people play guitar.
As to buying a Gibson, someone they're pricing out average buyers - that's true in more than one way. Next time I want to drop a few thousand dollars on an expensive guitar, I know I will have a wide range of first-rate choices at about half those prices, including used Gibsons. I considered myself well taken care of economically, certainly not a 1 percenter, but a 10 or a 15 percenter probably, and I find their prices absurd. My wife doesn't work at the moment to have more time for the kids and I applaud her. I'm an average buyer. I have a family. Savings from buying a more reasonable instrument can go into a nice holiday, or a fund for my kids. I should have bought more guitars when I was single - no regrets, though. And I can be perfectly happy with alternatives. I simply don't buy the idea that nothing sounds like a Gibson, unless anyone can describe to me how Dan Faenhle's tone, playing a Guild, in his Diana Krall days is inferior in any way to any Gibson tone, to take just one example.
On the subject of the new US president, I think people should just chill, Europeans especially, and mind their own backyard. Not only such people, unbelievably, typically do not have one bad thing to say about his predecessor, but they probably see a guy like the new president of France as a beacon of hope, a kind of new Obama - when the electoral process was rigged in a way I have never seen in my life time, and only thought was possible in a banana republic. This cannot end well, in a country with a tradition of liberty that began not in the French Revolution, as many people believe, but many centuries before - although you may believe, as our new President, that France no longer exists as a nation. Saying things like Americans are ignorant, and the only smart specimens live on the Eastern and Western coasts (and the rest are "deplorables", right? Right?), as I read on another thread, is hateful, is beyond ignorant and stupid, I'm sorry. I've been hearing those kinds of things for 20 years, it's the same rehashed mediocrity, mingled with envy and self-hate, over and over. The comparison with Denmark made me chuckle, as I happen to know people who know Denmark well, and what was said is completely untrue. And some, many of the smartest kids, and adults I ever saw were Americans. I wish people would just chill a little.
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