Gibson out of the archtop business?

[Stringswinger]

Like Silverfoxx wrote, if Gibson gets out of archtop production, those of us who are "haves" in the Gibson archtop department will have even more value in our instruments.

Heritage cutting back? Sure, why build stuff no one wants? Those who are happy with their Korean build DA's and Epis (and other Asian made archtops) are in luck. They found what they need at a low price. One can always get a custom made guitar. $3500 will buy you a hand carved archtop from Matt Cushman. Or you can spend 25K for a carved Benedetto (which will not be made by Bob Benedetto).

The free market will decide which guitars should be made. As it should.

[mitchelyoung]

My guess is that the new carved archtop market is fairly small and is well served by used instruments and new imports.

Having limited releases of L-4s, L-5s and Super 400s is a bit like winding down the space program. First, the experienced, knowledgeable guys have their skills slip through less use. Next, the following generation of Gibson luthiers have had little training and less experience. They will be sent to Eastman for preceptorships.

I'd like to say that I trust Gibson to carry the torch and pass it on well. I can't.

Heritage has done that. I was there not long ago. The original guys, all well into their 70s, are still working. The guys and gals under them are competent as well.

I couldn’t believe just when I’m saving for and L5-ces wow. So I went to Gibson’s web site and found this page
Gibson Archtop Electric Guitars
And see there still many choices available.


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[jzucker]

Dave's Guitars now a Heritage dealer.

You may be aware that Gibson dropped them last year in what I consider a poor marketing move.

Gibson's loss is Heritage's gain.

Except heritage is also limiting it's archtop production, much like gibson.

[jads57]

Dave Guitars is a good place to deal with. At least from the many interactions I've had over the years. Very straight forward, and courteous, and in it because Dave Rogers and his staff actually love guitars.

[rio]

I couldn’t believe just when I’m saving for and L5-ces wow. So I went to Gibson’s web site and found this page
Gibson Archtop Electric Guitars
And see there still many choices available.


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I’m sure there are a lot of old stock guitars that they have to sell. They just are apparently not making new ones. There are always used ones too, which for some people (like me) are preferable to new ones.


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[Gitfiddler]

I couldn’t believe just when I’m saving for and L5-ces wow. So I went to Gibson’s web site and found this page
Gibson Archtop Electric Guitars
And see there still many choices available.

Interesting that Gibson would feature the Johnny A. Signature on its Archtop page. I never considered the JA, CS336 or the (absent) CS356 'archtops'. They are carved tops, so maybe they fall into that category.

Oh well...back to your regularly scheduled programming.

[vinnyv1k]

Like I said in the beginning of this post. Gibson will continue to make Archtop guitars and all current models. They are simply going back to what they did 10 years ago. You must order 1st and then wait the 6-12 months to get it. This is simply how they can keep there high price point. My 2008 L5 took 8 months to get and my 2010 took 11 months and yes I had to pay top dollar. New archtops simply don’t move in stores. That is how I got a brand new blonde Super 400 for $7649.00. That is basically half price and Gibson wants full price. Basic supply and demand tactics.....it works.
You want it and we will build it for you and you will pay our price or simply buy used.

[Bluedawg]

Like I said in the beginning of this post. Gibson will continue to make Archtop guitars and all current models. They are simply going back to what they did 10 years ago. You must order 1st and then wait the 6-12 months to get it. This is simply how they can keep there high price point. My 2008 L5 took 8 months to get and my 2010 took 11 months and yes I had to pay top dollar. New archtops simply don’t move in stores. That is how I got a brand new blonde Super 400 for $7649.00. That is basically half price and Gibson wants full price. Basic supply and demand tactics.....it works.
You want it and we will build it for you and you will pay our price or simply buy used.

Yup

And the top dealers that can afford to spend the cash and have one on the floor for a few months ... or a few years will keep some in stock

[blackcat]

4,046 views and 109 responses - bet they wish they could garner those scores over in 'Lessons' or 'Songs' for instance!

How about corporate mismanagement and an excess of acquisitions leading to their dropping their focus/sights?

End of an era?

[jzucker]

Dave Guitars is a good place to deal with. At least from the many interactions I've had over the years. Very straight forward, and courteous, and in it because Dave Rogers and his staff actually love guitars.

Dave's guitar had a 175 advertised on reverb which I bought and it had a huge crack in the cutaway which extended into the neck joint which was probably affecting the neck joint integrity. The crack was not disclosed and there was no picture of it in the ad.

I had a funky experience returning it too.

The day they received it back, they put the ad right back up on reverb with no mention of the crack and didn't acknowledge that they had received the guitar back. It took several days just to get an acknowledgement about that. In the meantime, I contacted reverb and told them about the guitar and said that Dave's needs to disclose the crack. After a week or so, it was still being advertised with no mention of the crack. Eventually reverb pulled the ad and then a new ad appeared - still no mention of the crack. Reverb pulled it again and another ad appeared. Each time, I reported it to reverb and eventually the guitar stopped showing up there.

I never got any sort of apology for the screw-up (not disclosing the crack) either.

[savofenno]

I believe these 2 are new models, Solid Formed 17" Hollowbody Venetian & L-9, they are probably making a couple more of them.

I like The Solid Formed one, but looking into my wallet i must do with Ibanez AF-71, if i want something similar.

Ibanez AF71F-TBC – Thomann Sverige

[savofenno]

I don`t take this very seriously, it`s like that in every country, more or less.
Well, Bill C played saxophone reasonable nicely, if it wasn`t playback.

[vinnyv1k]

Dave’s guitars......I always found him to be a bit rude and was never ever to bang out a decent deal with him. Many here praise him. Maybe he is different face to face. I always dealt with him trying to do a phone deal. I have had good buys with CME and TMZ and if the guitar was a turd no problem with the refund. I also bought a amp from TMZ that UPS smashed. They promptly sent me another before they got the damaged one back.
The way we buy nowadays has definitely changed from 30 years ago.

[floatingpickup]

Gibson's biggest competition is itself. Sure, other brands intervene here and there, but a diehard that is willing to cough up big bucks for a Gibson archtop does not want other brands. That person wants a Gibson. New, used, it might not matter - and that's when cost enters the picture. And Gibson has 90 years of used archtops on the market!

I don't think anyone here can speak confidently about Gibson's cost model. We don't know the quantity of guitars they need to sell to cover their overhead, or what their production capacity is. Although it's obviously pretty impressive for Les Pauls, because those suckers are just everywhere. Maybe somebody has determined that they can sell x number of L-5s for 8-10 thousand USD brand new, and they are comfortable making and selling just that quantity. I imagine they could refactor the equation to produce more L-5s at less cost and sell more of them, but that someone has done the math and it works out fine as is.

In any case, I've never before seen the kind of basic quality problems shown in some of the Memphis instruments recently. It doesn't say much about that facility or its management to me. But I don't think it is equivalent to what you'll find at the Nashville Custom Shop producing the top dollar models.

I find the Memphis quality comment interesting... I have a 2013 50th Anniversary ES-335 VOS, made in Memphis, and it’s flawless. I’m very impressed with the quality of this guitar. It is also a very accurate reproduction of a 1963 model. I also have a number of Gibsons from Nashville and Kalamazoo for comparison, and the Memphis 335 definitely holds it’s own with all of them. Maybe I’m just lucky, but I’m not convinced that’s the case.
Keith

[Doctor Jeff]

Dave’s guitars......I always found him to be a bit rude and was never ever to bang out a decent deal with him. Many here praise him. Maybe he is different face to face. I always dealt with him trying to do a phone deal. I have had good buys with CME and TMZ and if the guitar was a turd no problem with the refund. I also bought a amp from TMZ that UPS smashed. They promptly sent me another before they got the damaged one back.
The way we buy nowadays has definitely changed from 30 years ago.

Dave is a very abrupt person, no-nonsense. Kind of a southside Chicago-type of personality, if you know what I mean.

That side, my interactions with him and the staff there have been fine. He was recently written up in the local paper for providing guitars for schools in the area, as well as personally bringing a guitar to a cancer patient. I know, public image and everything, but he seems to be a pretty stand-up guy.

[floatingpickup]

I just bought 4 brand new Gibsons and all have perfect frets and perfect nuts.

My experience is that a guitar repairman will only see the guitars that have problems from a particular manufacturer, therefore his observations may be negative based on a small sample.

I practiced criminal defense law for a time. If I based my observation of humanity on the clients who came to my office in those days, I would have had a dim view of humanity indeed.

I agree with Stringswinger. I have never had a new Gibson with bad frets or a bad nut. And I have bought quite a few of them.
Keith

[Stringswinger]

I find the Memphis quality comment interesting... I have a 2013 50th Anniversary ES-335 VOS, made in Memphis, and it’s flawless. I’m very impressed with the quality of this guitar. It is also a very accurate reproduction of a 1963 model. I also have a number of Gibsons from Nashville and Kalamazoo for comparison, and the Memphis 335 definitely holds it’s own with all of them. Maybe I’m just lucky, but I’m not convinced that’s the case.
Keith

I own a couple of Nashville Custom shop Gibsons (a 1997 Super 400 and a 1996 L-5 Wesmo), a Kalamazoo Gibson (1963 ES-175D), a Regular production Nashville Gibson (1997 ES-175 reissue) and the 4 Memphis made ES guitars (VOS ES-175, VOS ES-330, Figured ES-335 and Figured ES-175) that I just acquired in the CME Blowout. The Memphis guitars are as good as any of them. I too am quite impressed with the quality of the Memphis guitars.

But there is a problem at Gibson. A friend played my new VOS 175 and declared it to be one of the best archtops he had ever played (It is a stellar guitar). He promptly ordered one from CME. His guitar is a dud (the neck in not straight) and is being returned. While most Gibsons sold these days are first rate guitars, the duds are making their way into the stream of commerce (Vinny and Jack Z both were unlucky with several dud guitars sold during the CME blowout). IMO, this IS a bad business practice as it does diminish the value of the brand. I suspect one of two things is happening:

1. There is a lack of proper "gatekeeping". Someone should insure that the duds never leave the factory until they are free of defects (and this is not happening at a level that it should), or:

2. A choice has been made to allow the duds to enter the stream of commerce. Some buyers are not that picky (or are even ignorant of the fact that their guitar is a dud) and the bean counters have made a decision that it is cheaper to deal with the cost of returns and any brand name diminishment that it is to catch and/or fix the duds, and have figured that the non picky/ignorant buyers will simply accept them.

When I take one of these new Gibsons out of the case, it is hard for me to fathom the disappointment that those who get one of the duds feel, as my new Gibsons are all quite exceptional in looks, feel and sound. I hope the problem gets fixed.

[rio]

I own a couple of Nashville Custom shop Gibsons (a 1997 Super 400 and a 1996 L-5 Wesmo), a Kalamazoo Gibson (1963 ES-175D), a Regular production Nashville Gibson (1997 ES-175 reissue) and the 4 Memphis made ES guitars (VOS ES-175, VOS ES-330, Figured ES-335 and Figured ES-175) that I just acquired in the CME Blowout. The Memphis guitars are as good as any of them. I too am quite impressed with the quality of the Memphis guitars.

But there is a problem at Gibson. A friend played my new VOS 175 and declared it to be one of the best archtops he had ever played (It is a stellar guitar). He promptly ordered one from CME. His guitar is a dud (the neck in not straight) and is being returned. While most Gibsons sold these days are first rate guitars, the duds are making their way into the stream of commerce (Vinny and Jack Z both were unlucky with several dud guitars sold during the CME blowout). IMO, this IS a bad business practice as it does diminish the value of the brand. I suspect one of two things is happening:

1. There is a lack of proper "gatekeeping". Someone should insure that the duds never leave the factory until they are free of defects (and this is not happening at a level that it should), or:

2. A choice has been made to allow the duds to enter the stream of commerce. Some buyers are not that picky (or are even ignorant of the fact that their guitar is a dud) and the bean counters have made a decision that it is cheaper to deal with the cost of returns and any brand name diminishment that it is to catch and/or fix the duds, and have figured that the non picky/ignorant buyers will simply accept them.

When I take one of these new Gibsons out of the case, it is hard for me to fathom the disappointment that those who get one of the duds feel, as my new Gibsons are all quite exceptional in looks, feel and sound. I hope the problem gets fixed.

I’m sure we will never know but I’d absolutely love to know of it is number 1 or 2. I’m not sure which is worse but I would guess the second scenario is more likely, maybe with a bit of a mixture with 1 where the higher ups decide it is more profitable to ship all guitars despite condition and decide to not have people be as scrutinizing when they give the guitars a look over before shipping them.


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[ptchristopher3]

I’m sure we will never know but I’d absolutely love to know of it is number 1 or 2. I’m not sure which is worse but I would guess the second scenario is more likely, maybe with a bit of a mixture with 1 where the higher ups decide it is more profitable to ship all guitars despite condition and decide to not have people be as scrutinizing when they give the guitars a look over before shipping them.


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OR, how about that #1 or #2 constitute a “false dichotomy” and there are other possible explanations.

#3 It has been this way for many decades and the guitar market continues nonetheless to value the brand name and accept the quality as delivered - both in general quality, and in variability.

If this were the case, then Gibson, and CME, and Dave selling a used 175, would quite reasonably (if possibly not “ethically”) throw absolutely anything with the Gibson brand on it out to buyers assuming, very reasonably so, that someone will be happy with it despite general, systematic, or varying quality compromises.

[vinnyv1k]

I believe the deal CME had to make was take all (good & bad) or none. In fact David told me this. With some of the minor flaws like a bad nut the price was still good enough to accept. The bad necks....well I suspect the repair team at CME are pretty busy with those returns right now.
A player’s skill set is a big factor and I believe Gibson is very aware of this. Any guitar will work for a cowboy chord player. Some people just collect guitars as a hobby like a stamp collector. I believe Gibson just rolls the dice that the turds end up in the right type of buyers hands. If not oh well.

Trust me on this as this is fact. Dealers that return too many bad Gibson’s get dumped as a Gibson dealer. It certainly happened to my Gibson dealer who was a dealer for over 40 years. Also it happened to Gryphon Stringed Instruments.
I am just speculating this happened to Dave’s also and Rainbow. I love Gibson but not the CEO. Yes he did save the company but that was very long ago. Now his head has swelled to a unacceptable size that has brought Gibson right back to the Norlin scenario. On the brink of belly up.

[blackcat]

Like Silverfoxx wrote, if Gibson gets out of archtop production, those of us who are "haves" in the Gibson archtop department will have even more value in our instruments.

Heritage cutting back? Sure, why build stuff no one wants? Those who are happy with their Korean build DA's and Epis (and other Asian made archtops) are in luck. They found what they need at a low price. One can always get a custom made guitar. $3500 will buy you a hand carved archtop from Matt Cushman. Or you can spend 25K for a carved Benedetto (which will not be made by Bob Benedetto).

The free market will decide which guitars should be made. As it should.

Could it just be the 'free market' that is wholly responsible for the mess that Gibson is in. You know shareholders first and QA second? Acquisitions instead of a single focus and all that?

[blackcat]

Could it just be the 'free market' that is wholly responsible for the mess that Gibson is in. You know shareholders first and QA second? Acquisitions instead of a single focus and all that?

This from a parallel thread........................

'There is no argument these days about whether a company serves the customers or the shareholders. Shareholders (should) know that the key to a thriving business is long term customer satisfaction. So, what is good for the customers is also good for the shareholders. If a company abuses its unique standing in the market place by not adhering to customer satisfaction as job 1, they are on a slippery slope to extinction or takeover. Releasing defective product into the market place means that either their business model is wrong, their QC processes are faulty, or they are dysfunctional - i.e. failing management.'

A surplus of accountants perhaps?

[Jazzstdnt]

Rumors of their demise may be premature, lol. Recent arrivals at The Music Zoo.

Gibson Custom Shop Byrdland Archtop Electric Guitar Bahama Blue Burst | The Music Zoo

Gibson Custom Shop L-5 CT Electric Guitar Vintage Sunburst | The Music Zoo

Gibson Custom Shop Les Paul Ultima Butterfly Electric Guitar Antique N | The Music Zoo

Gibson Custom Shop Les Paul Ultima Harp Lady Electric Guitar Natural | The Music Zoo

[Robertkoa]

This. I'm friends with a guitar maker that operates a Plek machine. Without a proper setup and good programming, you're better off doing things by hand.

Generally and as a LAYMAN on this subject but often very logical I agree.

I asked some questions about the PLEK with Glaser Guitars in Nashville when this tech was new.


My only concern is IF it is overplekked ..like I have .011s on the Guitar and the Truss Rod is in position X .....
Then six months later it needs a truss rod slight adjustment and NOW truss rod is in 97% X or 103%X am I slightly (as Segovia would say ) screwed because the frets are planed for X.

So the general idea of the PLEK should be - they shave off LESS material than a Human.

Gibson appears to shave the crown OFF of the frets so they look like a railroad track on top .

ALSO Gibson specs often say the frets are .045 on new Models but MUCH lower than my .047 Frets .

2 mil is 2 mil even in Nashville or Memphis right ( no Black Holes nearby ).

So PLEK should be fine if it is very subtle and yes common sense and accuracy counts .

Ideally someone would double check the Tension to the neck and make sure the amount of FLEX the PLEK machine applies is slightly less than with Strings on- if possible.

[Jazzstdnt]

my guitars have all been PLEK's with the strings on. The machine pushes them from side to side