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Do archtop guitars have anything to do with culture?
Gibson has probably recognized the signs of the epoch first: A study carried out in recent days in Germany has shown that in comparison to 1998, the interest of the young generation (under 30 years) in culture has fallen by 41%.
You're thinking archtop guitars have more to do with business?
Here, too, the young generation currently shows 34% less interest than in 1998.
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01-24-2018 07:14 PM
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The jazz piano world is thriving and it has a strong and young student base. New electric keyboards, although not as great an instrument as acoustic pianos, are affordable, downright cheap compared to guitars. Same for affordable trumpets, trombones, saxophones, all woodwind instruments.
In the 70's 'they' said jazz was dead. Jazz isn't dead. And if Gibson no longer has a market for its overpriced guitars thankfully the music itself is not dependent upon whether or not Gibson survives. Jazz is thriving in Japan and elsewhere...the music will survive.
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By the same token, you don't need a $7,500 archtop to play jazz guitar. You can do it on a Squire Tele for peanuts. It's not "as great an instrument" but it gets the job done, and is perfect for a student.
Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
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Or a $300 Ibanez archtop, for that matter. I think the market reality is less than "jazz is dead" or "archtops are passé," but instead that $7500 Gibsons are competing with cheap but decent Ibbys and the like. Are they equivalent instruments? No, but... despite the price tag, those are surprisingly decent instruments. A Rolls Royce or a Corolla will both get you there (and the Corolla is more likely to get you there than the Rolls is), but the market for expensive luxury goods is always small.
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Originally Posted by lawson-stone
Yup, the Marketing Slime (which I was one for a couple years) will make everything sound like they unearthed secrets from Orville Gibson's sock drawer. In Marketing if there is about 1% truth then it true.
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I found this in two seconds, just like always. Sort by price high to low.
Gibson Archtop Electric Guitars
Then this:
Gibson Custom Shop Electric Guitars | The Music Zoo
Then this:
https://wildwoodguitars.com/product-...rby=price-desc
But - there are fewer models and the prices seem to be lower.
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Just looked at the Music Zoo ad that someone linked. $17k + for USED LP? I don't think so. I can't imagine why anyone with a reasonable amount of sanity would even consider paying Gibson's prices for their guitars when the folks at Benedetto can blow them away for 6 grand or less and you get a handmade instrument. Is it just because it says "Gibson" on the peghead and they have a history? It's all way above my pay grade - I'm a home made Tele guy but if I went looking to buy a quality archtop (or even solid body), Gibson is the last place I'd look. I build solid body guitars (and I've built a lot of them) and I know what they cost to build - you can buy premium wood for a LP for less than $500 and the pickups and hardware will set you back another $500. I don't think the machines that carve tops and necks get paid very much and all the other stuff is not really rocket science - there's really no 'luthiery' involved - it's a 'guitar factory' and the guitars are just overprice because of the name.
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Being a betting man, I suspect this disappearance of archtops is tied to a NAMM annoucement for a new line of archtops be they imports, Nasheville or Montana made. Announcement to hit the web next week.
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Feel bad for the Gibson archtop fans.
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Originally Posted by Skip Ellis
I hear ya. I have never liked Les Pauls at ANY price. Just not my thing, I prefer ES models and have bought a few.
From what I hear though, Les Pauls are the engine that makes Gibson go.
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FWIW Ibanez has also made the same move to limit archtop production
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And Eastman Originally Posted by ESCC
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If the pictures tell the truth, the fret nibs are gone. At least one small step of progress in all the misery. Originally Posted by savofenno
Apart from that, I would be a hippocrat to blame Gibson for cutting down archtop production. I own two Gibson archtops. The one was made in 1935, the other in 1961. My newer instruments are all non-Gibson.
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To expand on that, there is just so much more "choice" today.Buying a Gibson was always a tall order, but today there are so many more affordable choices. The choices are also much closer in sound and quality than years past. Gibson had it all for a long time. What's left of Gibson will chase the larger market as that's where their business plan fits best. Archtops really aren't it.
Originally Posted by Cunamara
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Wow, for only $27K I could own a Paul played by Steve Miller! - whose music is the worst kind of dumb Neanderthaloid suburban-teen-druggie crap.
Long as I can find people like this (pic taken in Vancouver a few years ago), I'm not worried about the future of jazz or the archtop:
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Maybe I'm late to this topic, but I went: Originally Posted by Greentone
gibson.com -> Products, Electric Guitars -> Model, Archtop
I see pretty much everything but the WesMo. I wonder if that is an old, or current page?
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Now wait a minute Stringswinger, I resemble that remark! Originally Posted by Stringswinger
In my typical optimistic spirit, I think that archtops are not going the way of the old guys, (me), I believe there are more of them out in the hands of guitarists than we suspect due to a broader priced market offering instruments that are surprisingly affordable and "gig worthy", Eastman, Peerless, Ibanez to name a few. The market place is very competitive as is typical following a recession and in general, that's to our advantage as players.
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Gibson archtops are great, but i find them too overpriced to consider buying new. Just look at what builders like say, Victor Baker in the states, Elferink in europe provide, look at their pricing.. not saying better or worse, cause in reality it is basically different, but there sure are more affordable alternatives for a top quality archtop. And then, there are all these chinese instruments, which are only getting better..
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In Gibson I Trust!
Don't Give Up the Ship!
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Think about this:
You can buy a brand new American made Fender Strat for $1,400. A proper vintage one from 1965 will run you $15k-$20k. One from the 1990s, already a couple of decades old, is very close to a new one, or a couple hundred less. Maybe $1,000.
Which will you buy? There is more incentive to buy new, because the price differential between new and slightly older is not much. True vintage is out of reach.
Compare with Gibson. A brand new Gibson L-5CES is what - $8,000 or $9,000? A nice used one from 20 years ago is $5,000. A true vintage one from the 1960s is $10k-$20k. In this case, the nice used one wins, because it's almost half as much as brand new, and the difference is thousands of dollars.
To get the market back, Gibson needs to reduce its prices to reflect the current used market rather than exceed it, which will in turn shift more sales to their new stock, and ultimately drive used prices lower. (Which could start the cycle again... but maybe not.)
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But do you think that will interfere with quality control and general craftsmanship. From my limited time reading the pages it seems like they already have issues with these things. If the quality goes down even slightly because they have less money to spend on producing them will anyone buy them? Seems tough in theory to reduce price and maintain or improve quality. Originally Posted by rpguitar
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Gibson's biggest competition is itself. Sure, other brands intervene here and there, but a diehard that is willing to cough up big bucks for a Gibson archtop does not want other brands. That person wants a Gibson. New, used, it might not matter - and that's when cost enters the picture. And Gibson has 90 years of used archtops on the market!
I don't think anyone here can speak confidently about Gibson's cost model. We don't know the quantity of guitars they need to sell to cover their overhead, or what their production capacity is. Although it's obviously pretty impressive for Les Pauls, because those suckers are just everywhere. Maybe somebody has determined that they can sell x number of L-5s for 8-10 thousand USD brand new, and they are comfortable making and selling just that quantity. I imagine they could refactor the equation to produce more L-5s at less cost and sell more of them, but that someone has done the math and it works out fine as is.
In any case, I've never before seen the kind of basic quality problems shown in some of the Memphis instruments recently. It doesn't say much about that facility or its management to me. But I don't think it is equivalent to what you'll find at the Nashville Custom Shop producing the top dollar models.
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I may have told this story here before but... Originally Posted by rpguitar
In 1986 I bought a PRS Custom 24 directly from PRS, dealing with Paul himself a few times over the phone. It was still a small operation.
Fast forward to several years ago and I found out that an original '86 PRS C24 (in the most desirable finish, vintage yellow) was fetching an incredible premium. So I sold it for an *obscene* price, much more than I have ever dealt with in a guitar deal. I turned around and bought a newer one for about a 1/5 of the price. And I like the new one better. The workmanship is impeccable, the finish is better, the pickups sound fabulous, and it has a tone control and the 5-way blade with more desirable switching options than the original 5-way rotary.
I never looked back nor regretted the exchange for one moment, I am beyond thrilled.
In this case, newer beats vintage both in price and function.
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For my 40th Birthday I bought a new PRS Artist II, great guitar. Investment? The new ones are better guitars and mine is worth less than I paid.
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This is my newest, My Ol'Gibson. 1950 LT-5; "T" is for Tenor. I sold a few things to get it, maybe paying more than I should have, but I love it. Arch Top is perfect for the new Quintet (piano, bass, drums, Telecaster (lead work) and me). Nickel strings, K&K non-adhesive pick-up system, played through a Fishman Loudbox Pro-Mini. Gibson got these RIGHT!
Last edited by Donnie; 01-25-2018 at 06:44 PM.
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