Gibson out of the archtop business?

[Lobomov]

Think about this:

You can buy a brand new American made Fender Strat for $1,400. A proper vintage one from 1965 will run you $15k-$20k. One from the 1990s, already a couple of decades old, is very close to a new one, or a couple hundred less. Maybe $1,000.

Yeah .. but you can get a 2011 strat for $700

[Average Joe]

Time, culture and music move on. Jazz tones aren't what they used to be, but then, were they ever? I see more young players with teles or strats than archtops, and I think it's as much to do with conception or ideals of tone as with prices.

That wonderful sound that archtops can produce is embedded in the history of jazz guitar, but is it a sound players want to make today or tomorrow?

[Jazzstdnt]

Think about this:

You can buy a brand new American made Fender Strat for $1,400. A proper vintage one from 1965 will run you $15k-$20k. One from the 1990s, already a couple of decades old, is very close to a new one, or a couple hundred less. Maybe $1,000.

Which will you buy? There is more incentive to buy new, because the price differential between new and slightly older is not much. True vintage is out of reach.

Compare with Gibson. A brand new Gibson L-5CES is what - $8,000 or $9,000? A nice used one from 20 years ago is $5,000. A true vintage one from the 1960s is $10k-$20k. In this case, the nice used one wins, because it's almost half as much as brand new, and the difference is thousands of dollars.

To get the market back, Gibson needs to reduce its prices to reflect the current used market rather than exceed it, which will in turn shift more sales to their new stock, and ultimately drive used prices lower. (Which could start the cycle again... but maybe not.)

Yeah maybe, but...

Comparing a bolt-on neck, cheap grade painted wood guitar (Fender) to a Gibson doesn't make much sense, and never did. Thank God for Fender though. A smart design for sure.

Regarding expensive vintage Gibsons, I know very little of that market but have observed a few reasons to buy, such as: PAF pickups, a really classic model that is no longer made, a specimen sample with beautiful figuring, hand carved era that preceded CNC machines, etc.

Other than that I don't know why someone would want to pay a premium for one, although buying one for a "normal" price is understandable. They have a coolness factor, like a classic car.

Regarding new vs. Norlin. Norlin was an ugly period. It may be a good option for acquiring an otherwise unreachable instrument for someone though. I owned a Norlin era archtop, and a good number of new Gibson archtops (2007 forward). I'd prefer a Benedetto, but the new Gibsons are very nice, and preferred over the homely Norlin era guitars.

And I don't know if Gibson will "get the market back" for carved archtops, as such. I think they flooded the market with custom shop archtops after 2000, so reducing output should bolster their high prices going forward. Supply and demand you know.

[rpguitar]

Jazz tones are not just about new music being composed and performed today. There are literally 90 years of jazz guitar tones to emulate. So we need all kinds of guitars to do that. Yes, some (many?) players want to make those sounds. And some don't. Hence the plethora of choices, including - and requiring - archtops of every flavor.

[rpguitar]

Comparing a bolt-on neck, cheap grade painted wood guitar (Fender) to a Gibson doesn't make much sense, and never did.

That is not my point. I'm only comparing the markets, not the instruments. Fender new vs. Fender used, and Gibson old vs. Gibson used. In each company's case, the new/used guitars have the same characteristics in terms of their construction and complexity. So the new and used stock do represent competition for each other.

There are lots of reasons to own original vintage Gibsons and pay what they command in the market. And Norlin was basically the 1970s and early 80s. 1988, more or less the beginning of Gibson's post-Norlin renaissance, was 30 years ago! So there are tons of used Gibsons that are neither original vintage nor Norlin. I was not raising a "new vs. Norlin" discussion. It's new vs. used, and used spans many decades.

I own a non-cutaway acoustic Super 400 from 1947, a real deal original example of such a creature. I paid in the 7's for it. Why would I prefer a brand new one of those for $10-12k? Or 20k?! Who knows what ungodly price they would ask for that.

[Jazzstdnt]

That is not my point. I'm only comparing the markets, not the instruments. Fender new vs. Fender used, and Gibson old vs. Gibson used. In each company's case, the new/used guitars have the same characteristics in terms of their construction and complexity. So the new and used stock do represent competition for each other.

There are lots of reasons to own original vintage Gibsons and pay what they command in the market. And Norlin was basically the 1970s and early 80s. 1988, more or less the beginning of Gibson's post-Norlin renaissance, was 30 years ago! So there are tons of used Gibsons that are neither original vintage nor Norlin. I was not raising a "new vs. Norlin" discussion. It's new vs. used, and used spans many decades.

I own a non-cutaway acoustic Super 400 from 1947, a real deal original example of such a creature. I paid in the 7's for it. Why would I prefer a brand new one of those for $10-12k? Or 20k?! Who knows what ungodly price they would ask for that.

Sorry, didn't mean to ding you on the Fender comparison. I guess I was referring to the comparison that is so often made - when discussing price. The comparison between Fender and Gibson rarely comes up when the topic is other than price.

The post Norlin era... OK. I still don't see a lot of beautiful samples, but maybe some. Gibson raised their game when archtop makers proliferated. I cant mark the beginning of that period precisely, perhaps the mid-90s? Anyway, they continue to be competitive when it comes to wood figuring, color and finish, inlay beauty, etc. And yes I know, those things don't affect sound but...

I can't think of any reason to pay big bucks for a super 400 if one can find a better price for a quality instrument. (except for one cherry sunburst quilted sample that The Music Zoo had a few years ago, wow). Anyway, most super 400s that I see, regardless of era, are expensive mama jamas. Deal hunting would seem to be smart, so good for you.

[John A.]

That is not my point. I'm only comparing the markets, not the instruments. Fender new vs. Fender used, and Gibson old vs. Gibson used. In each company's case, the new/used guitars have the same characteristics in terms of their construction and complexity. So the new and used stock do represent competition for each other.

There are lots of reasons to own original vintage Gibsons and pay what they command in the market. And Norlin was basically the 1970s and early 80s. 1988, more or less the beginning of Gibson's post-Norlin renaissance, was 30 years ago! So there are tons of used Gibsons that are neither original vintage nor Norlin. I was not raising a "new vs. Norlin" discussion. It's new vs. used, and used spans many decades.

I own a non-cutaway acoustic Super 400 from 1947, a real deal original example of such a creature. I paid in the 7's for it. Why would I prefer a brand new one of those for $10-12k? Or 20k?! Who knows what ungodly price they would ask for that.

Yeah, but ... New/used are only in competition for each other if the prices are close, and the market is mainly customers who can afford either one, and buyers are making rational decisions about value. I suspect that's a (small?) subset of people buying guitars.

Re: Fender ... A "used Standard" US Strat (whatever that's called these days) has a big price spread -- Reverb says $700-900 in sold prices; factoring in craigslist and stores it's wider. Compare that to $1400 new, and I think these are in part different markets altogether. There are a lot more people who can afford $700 for a used Strat than there are people who can afford $1400. They pull the used price much more than people who can afford either and are doing an unemotional valuation of the the two. Fender dropping their price from $1400 to $1200 might pick up some customers who were on the fence vis a vis a $1000 used strat and who actually have $1200, but it's not going to move anybody with only $700.

Re: Gisbon ... Right off the bat, there are different people and buying behaviors involved when you're talking about items costing north of $5k vs south of $1k. In the Gibson new/used comparison, you have to factor in that many people buying Gibsons are buying prestige/status and perceive the prestige competition to be between new and vintage, with used not being in the prestige running (I definitely know people like this). So, yes, there are some buyers who recognize that a used and a new Super 400 are the same thing, but there's a niche who believe differently and that niche may be big enough in Gibson's view to keep new prices high.

John

[savofenno]

Today`s generation of 15-30 year old males are the most stupid ever, in every respect. Their chidren will condemn them to hell.

This was meant as reply to Stringswinger`post in 24th Jan.

[Alder Statesman]

Today`s generation of 15-30 year old males are the most stupid ever, in every respect. Their chidren will condemn them to hell.

This was meant as reply to Stringswinger`post in 24th Jan.

Uh, no regarding the current generation.

[Arnesto]

Archtops? Seriously guys, that ship has sailed. The only thing left of the market is a bunch of old guys (us) who wax nostalgically for great guitars that make great music. Jazz is dead. Between indulgent post bop jazz musicians whose "art music" turns on but a scant few and the culture of technology, where computer generated anything is "better" than the real thing, jazz has not had a fighting chance.

Add dozens of luthiers all building Benedetto clones and selling them to guys with too much disposable income and too little musical talent (with some exceptions to be fair), and the shrinking market for archtops combined with a bloated supply has pushed Gibson, the inventor of the archtop guitar out of the market.

Gibson will build archtops to order (at very high prices), but for now, the party is over, with great party treats (CME 175's at blow out prices) for those of us smart enough (or is it foolish enough?) to stay till the end.

But pendulums swing. Jazz and the archtop guitar will one day make a comeback (for jazz is the finest music ever created and archtop guitars are the finest guitars ever created). I do doubt that the majority of us on this forum will live long enough to see it. But while the Titanic that was jazz sinks, I for one am going to be playing this superb music on these superb guitars as long as I can.

Totally agree

[Doctor Jeff]

Today`s generation of 15-30 year old males are the most stupid ever, in every respect. Their chidren will condemn them to hell.

This was meant as reply to Stringswinger`post in 24th Jan.

LOL they say that about every generation...

[oldane]

Today`s generation of 15-30 year old males are the most stupid ever, in every respect. Their chidren will condemn them to hell.

This was meant as reply to Stringswinger`post in 24th Jan.

Young people these days aren't what they used to be. In fact young people never was. Even in the Roman empire there were rants like that.

My son and his wife are doing quite well and they are far more disciplined and responsible than I ever was in his age. I'm not worried.

[LtKojak]

Young people these days aren't what they used to be. In fact young people never was. Even in the Roman empire there were rants like that.

My son and his wife are doing quite well and they are far more disciplined and responsible than I ever was in his age. I'm not worried.

But you're not american and you don't live in the US.

Both you and your children grew up in one of the world's most well-educated, well-informed, fact-based environment, with a lot of debate and mutual sparring of ideas and ample exercise of critical thinking at every level of education, which even doubled in college. And I'm able to say this because I did live in both the US (NYC) and Denmark long enough to see the differences.

Most americans never had such a chance in at least three generations. You just can't blame the people for the outcome. You blame the system.

[LtKojak]

I looked and a lot of 335-ish models and the 275 and that's it.

My guess is they want to cool the archtop market down for a year or so, then bring them back, but made in Japan or Korea and finished in the U.S. Like the Sadowsky archtop made in Japan and finished in the U.S. They need to cut the expensive part of the production down, then bring it back to U.S. for the finish, setup, and fine tuning. I'd be fine with that if they cut the prices a bit, but looking at Gibson history they don't cut prices.

Could end up with Epiphone and Gibson archtops being made in same factory, then finished in two different countries.

Gibson's becoming the TeleNovela of guitars, stay tuned for the next episode of As Your Stomach Turns!

Man, this is as much hilarious as it's true. Kudos for the delivery. Pretty darn good.

[BigMikeinNJ]

Gibson and it seems Heritage are taking a time out - trying to figure out if making archtops is worth it any more. They may decide it isn't... Too many Les Paul models in demand with less labor intensive builds to be sold... I'm real glad I have my Gibsons and Heritages already... If I want another Gibson it's gonna be a vintage piece anyway.

Big

[Stringswinger]

But you're not american and you don't live in the US.

Both you and your children grew up in one of the world's most well-educated, well-informed, fact-based environment, with a lot of debate and mutual sparring of ideas and ample exercise of critical thinking at every level of education, which even doubled in college. And I'm able to say this because I did live in both the US (NYC) and Denmark long enough to see the differences.

Most americans never had such a chance in at least three generations. You just can't blame the people for the outcome. You blame the system.

Wow an America bashing post based on a post made by a guy from Sweden. Reading comprehension skills seem to be in short supply here.

[LtKojak]

Reading comprehension skills seem to be in short supply here.

Well, your skillset is just as good as your actual president's. Be proud!

[oldane]

But you're not american and you don't live in the US.

Both you and your children grew up in one of the world's most well-educated, well-informed, fact-based environment, with a lot of debate and mutual sparring of ideas and ample exercise of critical thinking at every level of education, which even doubled in college. And I'm able to say this because I did live in both the US (NYC) and Denmark long enough to see the differences.

Most americans never had such a chance in at least three generations. You just can't blame the people for the outcome. You blame the system.

You may or may not have a point, I don't know. I do know and acknowledge that we are priviledged in many ways here in Denmark. Whatever, it was never in my mind to draw in differences between countries - and even less politics - and I much prefer to stay out of such discussions on a guitar forum. My point was simply that those rants about the youth have been there - all over the world - for thousands of years. Despite that, mankind is still here and the world still stands. So maybe it's not so bad after all.

[Robertkoa]

Somewhere between ( wild guess ) body thickness

of 2.2 inches to about 3.5 inches the ES 275 could have been a great Guitar.

They could have even offered two different thicknesses for Jazzers and people into TONES and those who need feedback resistance....

If you are a Vegetarian creating new types of Meat Burgers...probably better to consult or even have people around who eat meat rather than create in a vacuum .

" What are you saying here with this analogy Robert ?"

I am saying that much of what Gibson does does not make sense from a Guitaristic, functional perspective .

However , I do understand that at least from a Marketing Perspective - it makes little sense either ..lol.

Frustrating because they have made so many great sounding, and innovative Guitars and still can and do - although many Models seem overpriced especially concerning the fretwork and their ...ahem ....' unique '
use of the Plek Machine .

[BeBob]

In this case, newer beats vintage both in price and function.

Maybe I'm in the minority, but I can't think of anything from the 1980s as being "vintage".

To me, everything from that era is just older used gear.

[Jazzstdnt]

Somewhere between ( wild guess ) body thickness

of 2.2 inches to about 3.5 inches the ES 275 could have been a great Guitar.

They could have even offered two different thicknesses for Jazzers and people into TONES and those who need feedback resistance....

If you are a Vegetarian creating new types of Meat Burgers...probably better to consult or even have people around who eat meat rather than create in a vacuum .

" What are you saying here with this analogy Robert ?"

I am saying that much of what Gibson does does not make sense from a Guitaristic, functional perspective .

However , I do understand that at least from a Marketing Perspective - it makes little sense either ..lol.

Frustrating because they have made so many great sounding, and innovative Guitars and still can and do - although many Models seem overpriced especially concerning the fretwork and their ...ahem ....' unique '
use of the Plek Machine .

What do they do with the PLEK please?

I'm both a Gibson and PLEK customer so am interested to know more about this.

[ptchristopher3]

What do they do with the PLEK please?

I'm both a Gibson and PLEK customer so am interested to know more about this.

Looking at the guitars they send to dealers it appears that they put a spoon where the cutting bit goes on the PLEK then put a hamster running back and forth on a keyboard to instruct the machine.

Seriously, chipped and mis-cut nuts, horribly rounded fret ends far inboard of the idiotic nibs. The usual mess.

In my experience, it has for 40 years been the case that many players do not mind the mess from Gibson.

Go figure.

[Stringswinger]

Looking at the guitars they send to dealers it appears that they put a spoon where the cutting bit goes on the PLEK then put a hamster running back and forth on a keyboard to instruct the machine.

Seriously, chipped and mis-cut nuts, horribly rounded fret ends far inboard of the idiotic nibs. The usual mess.

In my experience, it has for 40 years been the case that many players do not mind the mess from Gibson.

Go figure.

I just bought 4 brand new Gibsons and all have perfect frets and perfect nuts.

My experience is that a guitar repairman will only see the guitars that have problems from a particular manufacturer, therefore his observations may be negative based on a small sample.

I practiced criminal defense law for a time. If I based my observation of humanity on the clients who came to my office in those days, I would have had a dim view of humanity indeed.

[rio]

Maybe I'm in the minority, but I can't think of anything from the 1980s as being "vintage".

To me, everything from that era is just older used gear.

I know, it’s hard for me too but it is the case. “Vintage” is somewhere between 20-30 years old, depending on who you ask. So to some my ‘97 AF207 is vintage, which blows my mind since 1997 doesn’t seem very long ago. And pretty soon guitars made in 2000 will be vintage.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[ptchristopher3]

I just bought 4 brand new Gibsons and all have perfect frets and perfect nuts.

My experience is that a guitar repairman will only see the guitars that have problems from a particular manufacturer, therefore his observations may be negative based on a small sample.

I practiced criminal defense law for a time. If I based my observation of humanity on the clients who came to my office in those days, I would have had a dim view of humanity indeed.

String,

You are mistaken in my case.

I have looked at 6 different Memphis guitars FOR SALE in detail recently and they were all finished with truly incompetent fret and nut work.

I can only remember “Hondo II” guitars in the early 80’s having a similar consistent lack of attention to quality as Gibson has managed for decades.

Any given guitar may certainly be acceptable to a player for a number of reasons.

I am glad that you are happy with your guitars, for whatever actual reasons you may be so.

I am decidedly uninterested in your analysis of my opinion.