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I still remember the first time I played a 575, back when Heritage just started up, really impressive guitar then and now. I had been playing an ES-175 for about 10 years and was a little bummed the Heritage was nicer than my old Gibby.
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08-29-2015 11:37 AM
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[QUOTE=jazz.fred;562930]Although I truly appreciate the input of all the forum members, since I'm going to be playing the instrument, I need to be as thorough as possible in my pre-purchase analysis. In an effort to be as objective as possible, I have created a matrix. All information from published manufacturer's information.
This analysis is "objective"--but not meaningful. "Scientistic" and not "scientific". According to this analysis, my Aria Pro II 175 (1978) is every bit as good as a real 175...the construction is the same, and gee I could buy 3 (or 4) of them for the price of a 175. IF you buy guitars in order to look at them--- this "objective" analysis is spot on.
As for my Aria Pro II, don't get me wrong...it is a pretty good instrument but not the real deal...it shares some tonal characteristics with, but does not sound like, a real 175. It is more "compressed" sounding than a 175...both in terms of volume, and in terms of bass and tonal response...it is kind of like the difference between cooking with real butter vs. margarine...for a lot of dishes you don't notice...but for some things, you do. Or if you've been to France and tasted real, unpasteurized cheese---not the stuff which the American dairy industry has us eating, on a bogus "health scare"---then you know what I'm talking about.
The truth of the matter is---buy the Peerless and then go to sell it....and see what 3rd parties in the marketplace value them for ....answer about $1100...the Heritage will hold its value better ($1700 or so), and if you'd bought the used one in excellent condition, you'd do better still. My Aria Pro II, beat up and bought 2nd hand for $650 has its arguments---it gets 80-85% of a 175 sound, and with the $2000 I saved, I could get a really smokin' amp plus another guitar. But in your e.g., you look at paying full price---which is like my buying the Aria for say $1300.
So now own a gtr. worth a grand less than you paid, and it sounds pretty good, but still not the same, character-wise or tonally, as the 575. But I suppose you can look at your chart, and talk yourself into thinking you made the right choice. (Maybe you can pull out your chart, when you go to sell it, and convince everyone else in the world of greater value...but I wouldn't hold my breath on this.)
The Heritage 575 IS a different gtr. than a Gibson 175, but the Heritages, I think, share a common richness of tone with the Gibsons. When I tried a Peerless Cremona in my local shop, I really wanted to like it...I did...I mean it LOOKED so nice..but it sounded thin and plinky, and boomy on the bass. I have a handmade Benedetto-type archtop that I paid $800 for (incl. case)---it has some cosmetic issues, and it was built by a guy who entered them into guitar shows. Sound-wise, it is a far, far better instrument than the Cremona I tried. Playability was equivalent, after I had my luthier-tech guy address the cosmetic and neck issues. I'll never sell it, because I'd have to spend big bucks (probably 3-4K ) for something of equivalent tonal value.Last edited by goldenwave77; 08-29-2015 at 12:22 PM.
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You'll get a good guitar either way. I'd still go with a 575 if it were me but I've also been playing on one for several years so I know what I'm getting. One chord through my 575 and I was hooked. That made me want to play jazz. It was that rich that I'd abandon a style of music I had played for 20 years previous just to hear that guitar sound like it does. Wolfe has his 575's ordered a little differently than the standard in the electronics. At least he did when I got mine from him. So, so tasty.
Originally Posted by jazz.fred
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Originally Posted by jazz.fred
First, is the Imperial a floater or one of the Lou specials with an installed PU?
If the Imperial is a floater, I will do my best to contrast the Imperial to the 575. However the 575 I had was a floater also. I personally do not like 2 routed PUPs for jazz (that's just me folks) The reason is that the bridge PUP is like a tail. I don't need one of those either. Might be fun to wag instead of my tongue though.
I have never had a routed Imperial. I can't see that that model with a set in humbucker would be inferior in anyway, but I have no experience with them.
If the Imperial has a floating PUP, (I don't recall if you said) these are 2 very different guitars and I will endeavor to give you my best analysis of it, as the Imperial is the guitar I play every day. It's my main gigging and everything else guitar right now really. (and for quite a while now)
One thing is that the Imperial is fricking brilliant played acoustically. The Heritage sounds good no doubt, but all of those chunks cut out of the top will certainly add nothing to the acoustic tone. That is simply physics, I do believe.
So, if you can point me towards the Imperial you looked at, I'll give you my take.
Doc Dosco
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Doh! I see you have some specs for the Imperial up as contrast. I should look before I leap.... Originally Posted by jazz.fred
Doc
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Doc,
Thanks for the response.
I am interested in the Imperial with the fixed, routed humbucker. According to the marketing verbiage on the GnJ website, this confiruration has a tonal character similar to an L5 CES. I sent an email to Lou this morning inquiring as to the availability of a build/finish that appeals to me. The only finish I see on his website is a yellow and black burst that is as ugly as a babboon's arse. I have not, as yet, received a response.
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Ok, here are a couple of things.
Peerless now ships the standard Imperial with a floater and no inlay. This has been the case for over 5 years now. However Lou has models with and without inlay, with and without a floater. I am not certain if the UK guys order the routed PUPs or not. Lou has the means to stock a lot of guitars, so he has all sorts of different 'appointments' on Peerless that are not available to me.
The current PUPs for the Imperial are Kent Armstrong. The question is, what year is the Imperial? Does it have a KA? Is is an older Imperial before the switch in style. I wouldn't think so, but Lou buys a lot Peerless to get his special configurations as I said, and to get a certain Peerless with 'off the menu' colors, sizes, PUPs, he needs to order 4. I believe it used to be 6, but 4 is the last info I got when I asked about a special order. The one time special orders are a lot more cost when they build just one, and they aren't taking any one offs right now. So, when was the Imperial built? Is it a 16 or 17? The 16 is one of Lou's specialties.
My Imperial predates the KA PUPs that Graham from the UK pushed for. It's still a good PUP, but at some point I'd like to give Kent a shot at re-wiring it. As I posted before, $70 to hot rod a standard floater to a KA 'hand wound' directly from Kent is a steal, IMO.
The Imperial is the most comfortable 17" I have ever had, and it sure sounds the best. I have inlay. I like inlay. The new ones that I can order don't come with inlay. It takes a bit of getting used to with no inlay. I played a Manhattan with no inlay on gig years ago, and it was really low light. I would have liked inlay that night, as the dots on the side of the neck were hard to see. With enough light I later got used to it though. The Manhattan is close to the Imperial only it's a laminate. This laminate is good for a laminate but the carved top sounds better to me. Carved has that lush, rich, 'thick like honey' tone. The laminate is clean and clear, but not so luscious (or should I say scrumptious).
I liked the 575. It was more compact, if that is an issue. The acoustic tone was nice. It was a great little guitar. I had a model from the years that they had neck issues. However a fret file would have fixed that, I'm sure. I just got involved with Peerless before I could do anything about that.
Hope this helps. Anything more specific, hit me with it.....
Doc Dosco
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Last I heard, the 575 was on the way from Wolfe. Okay then, it's human to have a change of heart.
Don't buy the Imperial, or the 575.
If I'm spending that amount of money I'm buying the short scale Golden Eagle. It's in a different class.
2011 Heritage GOLDEN EAGLE Dark Wine Sunburst > Guitars : Archtop Electric & Acoustic - Just Archtop
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No, an Imperial with a fixed humbucker doesn't sound like an L5CES. Only a CES sounds like a CES. Weren't you just at GnJ? Didn't you play guitars? Originally Posted by jazz.fred
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I was there last October.
I was quoting their marketing copy, not offering an opinion.
While there, I played a Monarch, a Monarch 16 which I purchased, a Gigmaster 175 Jazz and two Eastmans.
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Ok, I posted that before I saw your last post.
I have never had a routed Imperial as I said. It is a 17" carved top, so it will sound good, even routed. The Cremona sounds good with a routed PUP, but it is maple. However, the Imperial routed should sound peachy.
Not sure on the color. I have a honey blond that really looks nice. They haven't been doing this color standard. It's either dark sunburst or light natural generally. Lou may have others though. And I am not fond of the sunburst so much myself.
The spruce on this guitar is Englemann, or I was told by a luthier who got one for the spruce top. He seemed to think it was superior for some reason. All I know is that it sounds good. The kind of spruce Peerless uses now may be different. That I just don't know.
So, there it is. Once Lou gets back to you, you can see if he even has the color and config you want.
Doc Dosco
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As the former owner of either the Imperial, I'm not buying that new.
Two reasons. Too much depreciation. Too many other carved guitars available in the Imperial's new price range.
Don't box yourself in on an Imperial you've not played.
For the last time, at $2800, I'm buying the short scale GE.
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Lou seems to have a blonde on Gbase.
2014 Peerless IMPERIAL CUSTOM HB BLONDE > Guitars : Archtop Electric & Acoustic - Guitars n Jazz
He has other colors too.
Doc
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That is an absolute stunner. You are right that the GE is in a class away from even it's 575 cousin. Related by brand. Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
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That 2011 GE on gbase has been sitting there for sale for months now. It's only not sold because it's looking for a "short scale" buyer. A 2002 GE appeared on ebay last week and sold yesterday for $3k. Same guitar, same price, different shade, but it was a traditional long scale. Originally Posted by barrymclark
Heritage Golden Eagle Guitar 2002 | eBay
Short scale buyers for GE's are in "short" supply. If I was a short scale buyer I'd have bought that wineburst GE months ago...that shade is rare to find in a GE. Great guitar if you know the product.
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You've bought all these guitars. Can I ask you what SOUND you're looking for in this new instrument?! Originally Posted by jazz.fred
I don't mean to be disrespectful, but the pt. of having a gtr. is what sound and/or it is going to produce...when all is said and done. As Jimmy Raney once said, "The guitar is a nice instrument...but in the end, music is what I'm interested in..." They're tools...some of them exquisitely wrought and constructed, but still in the end...they are a means to an end, not the end...at least IMO.
I have an L4-CES, big rich grand piano lushness--close to an L5,and also versatile...like an L5; have a 175 lawsuit copy---midrange thunki-ness and focused laminate clarity on single note lines; have a Benedetto-type archie with a floating pu---chimey and clear w/ great note separation--and also the best acoustically, could do pretty good gypsy-style stuff on this ; have a 339---more mid-rangey than the 175 copy, and gets close to Les Paul territory for overdriven stuff.
These are what I consider my jazz guitars, and there is more than enough here to cover practically everything under the sun. If the truth be told, the 175, L-4 CES, and 339 all can cover a wide spectrum, and having ONE of these is more than enough.
So, what is the sound that you're after? If you know this, I think you'll be guided accordingly. As you probably know, tonal "debates" here can replicate the religious wars of 17th cent. Europe when some countries lost 1/3 of their population... but at least the people in the debate know what they believe, and why they are passionate.
What SOUND are you looking for?
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I do believe Fred played those and decided on the Monarch 16. If he could afford all those guitars, he probably wouldn't be 'fretting' over this decision ..... (yuk yuk) Originally Posted by goldenwave77
Doc
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Maybe I read this too quickly...though the phrasing is a little bit ambiguous. So he's played a lot of guitars, but bought only one, at that time.
Still, the same point, though, ...what sound is he after?!
PS: I re-checked your OP, and you did list the gtrs. you currently own...so I was off base in thinking you'd purchased all the guitars, you mentioned trying at Summit, NJ guitar shop...my mistake.Last edited by goldenwave77; 08-30-2015 at 10:25 AM.
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Since you are so unsure of what you seem to want, there is another column you need to add: resale value. The Peerless will shed half of its new value. The Heritage about a quarter. The used market seems to be slow as of now. I would take the suggestion of the Heritage Golden Eagle. It is already used and you won't suffer the depreciation. If it doesn't work for you, you shouldn't suffer any depreciation. Of course, the more expensive a guitar is, the smaller your buying base becomes. As mentioned, you could sell the Heritage 575 for about $1700 which should just be criminal. Peerless for roughly $1100. If you buy the Peerless and decide you would have rather tried the Heritage, you'll have to come up with roughly 1400 to buy a new Heritage on top of the expected monies from selling the used Peerless. If you get the Heritage and decide you'd rather get the Peerless, you only need roughly $400 on top of the used sale of the Heritage. I'd say you're better off getting the Heritage first financially. Still though. That Golden Eagle… Originally Posted by jazz.fred
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I don't think your careful tabulation of features is adequate. It's like rating a person by listing hair color, shoe size, number of freckles, etc. How about Personality? Compatibility? Overall "feel" (ahem)? Quality? Resale (Appeal to Others)? Character? Ethnicity? (Country of Origin)
Guitars, like people, cannot be reduced to a list of specs.
Your list is too superficial to really work in this instance. Have you actually played these guitars in person? Forgive me if I missed that detail earlier in the thread.
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Phew! Is life not too short? We could all have been practising by now for at least say - 2 hours?!!!
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Thanks to all for your insightful comments.
I will consider them carefully as I move forward with the decision making process.
Thank you all so much!
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Not to beat a dead horse, but also your ranking of features is hardly "objective". Originally Posted by rpguitar
For e.g. a mahogany neck is not clearly "better" than a maple one---it is different, and will probably sound more mid-rangey, but this is a disguised preference purporting to be objective.
The same thing with inlay---some people like them...some don't....also the case with binding....furthermore more binding may mean a more expensive repair down the line if the instrument is refretted...so again, "more" is not necessarily better.
Same with ebony tailpieces...if this is a "cello-type" tailpiece, you can keep it...I've had these, and replaced one on my Benedetto-type archie with a metal piece that mounts over the endpin, and has the ebony piece on top of the metal, with no ridiculous piece of wire to stretch onto an endpin...much more stable and secure...and it sounds better to boot...there is a respected luthier on here who thinks these cello tailpieces are just a poor idea, design-wise for archtops.
Finally there is the ebony fretboard... I LIKE ebony fretboards...one of the reasons I liked a 347 I had which I never should have sold....have one on my L4-CES...very creamy-sounding but also more focused-sounding than rosewood----better note definition....some people, though, find them too bright...again this is a distinct preference, not an "objective fact".
Rhetorically speaking, what your chart does is "beg a lot of questions". (For the sake of clarity, "begging the question" means to assume that some proposition has been settled, or agreed upon, when it hasn't...now that we're getting into political campaign season....we will be seeing a lot of it going on.)
BOTTOM LINE....I still come back to what sound are you after...if you want a more acoustic sound, then maybe the Peerless is what you want....the Heritage 575 is not quite a full acoustic sound, though it has more of an acoustic character (2nd hand, to my ears...I've not owned one) than a 175-type sound.Last edited by goldenwave77; 08-30-2015 at 10:26 AM.
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I agree. However, I want to add that Jazz.Fred will never buy a guitar if he continues reading this thread, as it's become a competition to "win" his opinion. Humans have an innate desire to win the approval of others (consider it an economic marketplace of emotions). Originally Posted by rpguitar
The only further advice I could provide is to make a decision as soon as possible and don't look back. Either direction he goes will land him a professional level instrument that should provide years of enjoyment.
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Klatu is absolutely correct!
I am now considering not purchasing anything. But rather, continuing to play my Peerless Monarch 16 and Ibanez AF125. Both instruments play great, sound great and are visually stunning as well.
Thank you all once again for your insightful comments.
"And now back to your regularly scheduled programming."Last edited by jazz.fred; 08-30-2015 at 11:21 AM.
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