Peerless Imperial or Heritage H575 ?

[jazz.fred]

Hi Gents,

I thought that I would avail myself of your collective expertise.

I am considering adding a new instrument to my small collection which currently consists of the following:

1. Peerless Monarch 16
2. Ibanez AF 125
3. Epiphone Sheraton II (Korea 1995)
4. Yamaha LS16 Acoustic

I am considering either the Peerless Imperial or the Heritage H575. I don't think that I can go far wrong with either of these guitars. I was considering a Seventy Seven, but on a recent visit to Bob's Fine Guitars' website, I ascertained that he will no longer offer a two day evaluation period. As an educated and intelligent consumer I am unwilling to do business with absolutely no recourse, if I am unhappy with the purchase.

I had an extended phone conversation with Lou at Guitars-n-Jazz last evening and he strongly recommended the Imperial over the 575, although he does have a used 575 in excellent condition currently in his inventory which he would sell me at the same price ($2100) as the Imperial. I also have a price of $2512 for a new 575 from Wolfe's Guitars in Jupiter, Florida.

So, do you gents have any comments, insights or recommendations you could offer me?

Thanks for responding.

Best Regards.

[helios]

Hi,
Did Lou happen to mention the Eastman Jazz Elite series (16 or 17")? They are light, responsive, and get nice tone.
The scale is 25", the nut is 1.75" (which some dislike), but they have a Lollar Imperial Pickup. Made in China, but very decent workmanship. Here is a video featuring John Zweig:

[jazz.fred]

Hi Helios,

Thanks for responding.
No we did not discuss Eastman. Due to the fact that I have small hands, I would prefer a shorter scale length. The Imperial's scale length is 24.60 and the 575 is 24.75. I believe they would be a somewhat more comfortable play for me.

If the scale length were not a concern, I would have jumped on b2b's Cremona 16 in a heartbeat. Man, what an excellent value that appears to be.

[mr. beaumont]

575's the better guitar.

[Jim Soloway]

I have owned both a Peerless (Cremona 16) and several Heritages and my current primary instrument is a custom version of the H575. So while I haven't played an Imperial, I do have a reasonable amount of experience with both companies.

About the Peerless, it was a very well made guitar with a lot of strengths and a couple of weaknesses. It played well and sounded good but for a guitar that was all solid woods it didn't have a huge amount of acoustic presence. I was less than blown away by it's electronics but that's easily rectified. The woods were first rate and the fit and finish were excellent. Everything was very cleanly executed. I sold it specifically to fund a custom build at Heritage and being honest, there were times when I wished I had it back. It was clearly an "industrial" guitar, placing efficiency over elegance in a few features. The scarf joint was very obvious and while it did nothing to harm the guitar, it was a reminder that this was a guitar produced in an environment that was willing to make some compromises in the name of efficiency (albeit compromises that didn't challenge the integrity of the guitar). The finish was also very modern and a bit on the thick side for my taste. What cannot be challenged is that the guitar sounded very good, was very feedback resistant and was a pleasure to play. With a small bit of effort (mostly a different pickup and better wiring) I think it would have been a great long term guitar for someone who valued performance strength over more esoteric charms.

About my current Heritage (I'll restrict most of my comments to this guitar since it's the one that I play every day). It's strengths and weakness are almost the exact reverse of the Peerless. The woodwork and binding are not as clean as the Peerless. It is clearly the product of a craft shop rather than a more efficient industrial work environment. There are a few visible flaws (including one in the binding that is really obvious). It was also in need of a really good setup when I first got it. On the other hand, it was built to my exact specs with a non-standard scale length, wood combination, pickup, inlays, and neck profile. That's one of the big pluses of a true craft shop like Heritage, the guitars are individually crafted with little concern for efficiency of the building process and a lot of input from the customer. That also means that there is a huge variation in the specs of the H575, making it much less accurate to make summary judgements about it. They've been built with different woods, different bracing patterns, different pickup mounting schemes (both inset and floating), and even different scale lengths and body thicknesses (my two custom builds were both 25.5" scale lengths and my current guitar is 2.25" at the rims). I should probably add that the Heritage guitars have easily the most attractive bursts finishes that I've ever seen. The finishes are very thin and many look like they could have been done at the Gibson shop at the height of the Lloyd Load era.

The uptake on all of this is that the Peerless guitars are likely to be a lot more consistent and predictable (probably a good thing if you're buying long distance) while the Heritage guitars should all be judged on the individual characteristics of the actual guitar (and with the understanding that it may well be in need of a good setup). That being said, it is unlikely that I would trade my current Heritage for anything that Peerless has ever built. It took me two tries to get it right with my custom orders with Heritage (entirely my own fault) but my current guitar is about as magical an instrument as I've ever played. That certainly wouldn't be true about every Heritage but I would never expect to say that about a Peerless.

[jazz.fred]

Hi Jim,

Thank you for your detailed and insightful remarks.

With regard to setup, the very first thing I do when I acquire a new instrument is take it in to my tech for an initial setup. He is well aware of my preferences and optimizes the performance of the instrument accordingly.

Thanks again for your very helpful comment.

[vintagelove]

No experience with Heritage, but I have a Monarch that should be a very expensive instrument. The action is slammed to the board, it intonates perfectly over the entire neck, good fit finish and woods. I don't know how it could be a better instrument, and it came that way out of the box.

[jazz.fred]

Hi Jeff,

Could you please expound on your comment with a little more detail?

Thanks.

[barrymclark]

Hi Jeff,

Could you please expound on your comment with a little more detail?

Thanks.

I have no experience with the Peerless you speak of... but I have 5-6 years on a 575. That is a guitar that punches WELL above its weight. I highly, HIGHLY recommend you give this a serious look.

My 575 came Seth Lover equipped and it really old sound to it. Love it.

[Teddyfm]

Try both. My Cremona and Super Eagle are getting alot of love from me. Love to play them both. The only difference is that everytime I open up the case and look at my Super Eagle, I count my blessings that I have an instrument, built at such an iconic place in Jazz history, and get to play it anytime I want. Hard to quantify that.

But, of course, its how it plays and feels to You thats the most important criteria. At the end of the day, the name on the headstock, or the headstock itself, should not matter, as long as you love the sound coming through the guitar.

Good luck
Ted

PS
Get the 575

[jazz.fred]

Hi Vintage,

Agreed. I own a Monarch 16 and it certainly represents an excellent value in terms of Price/Performance Ratio

[jazz.fred]

Thanks, Barry.

[mr. beaumont]

Hi Jeff,

Could you please expound on your comment with a little more detail?

Thanks.

Sorry jazz.fred, i actually did type more but the internet appears to have swallowed it.

I'd retype, but Jim pretty much summed it up much more descriptively and eloquently than i could. But basically, the few Peerless' I've come across i've played and said "this is a nice guitar for the money" (though i'm not as inclined to say that at their new price point,but i digress)

But every time i pick up my Heritage, I can't believe I only paid x for it, because, as Barry says, it punches waaaay above it's weight.

[jazz.fred]

Hi Ted,

Thanks for your response. I agree that the name on the headstock doesn't really matter.

Your p.s. made me LOL!!!

[docdosco]

For what it's worth from my biased position, I sold a 575 floater for 3 Peerless guitars in 2007, but they gave me an endorsement deal and free guitars, so I found that enticing. I started with a Monarch (Jazz City and New York), but gravitated to an Imperial.

One slam on the stock Heritage is that the PUs are weak and both the Heritage guitars I had developed the dreaded 12th fret hump. Maybe they have solved that by now, as this was years ago. As to the PUs, I had a long talk with Kent Armstrong about that a few months ago. He does several rewinds a week on stock Heritage guitars. He loves the extra work but is bewildered that Heritage doesn't use better PUs.

The Imperial also had a weaker PU up till the UK guys (with Martin Taylor) got involved, and they now ship with Kent Armstrong PUs. The Peerless necks are straight, the action can be set low and I find the acoustic tone lovely, at least on all the Imperials I have had come through here, and that is well over a dozen over the years. The fit and finish is good, nice workmanship, care to detail etc.

Again, I have a slanted opinion, and I have had a close relationship with Peerless for a long time. The company itself is family owned. That means that I talk directly with the owner's daughter (the sales manager) all the time and she is extremely responsive to any issues. Lou will tell you about the Peerless brand. It may not matter to some, but the fact I could always get prompt help from their end was a big plus. And, Lou will take good care of you on a Peerless purchase.

Now, don't get me wrong... Heritage makes good guitars. But like Jim said, he had to have one built to his specs. Everyone has different experiences with certain guitars and certain companies. I love the Peerless guitars I have had and I have owned a bunch of different ones...... and have had a stellar relationship with the company. Lastly, I have a killer Imperial that I currently play that I wouldn't give up for anything, so different strokes .....yada yada.

If I can be more specific on any Peerless concerns, let me know.

Doc Dosco
Peerless Guitars Endorsee

[jazz.fred]

Hi Doc,

Thanks for your post.

When I initiated this thread I believed that the responses would serve to clarify my thinking. I now feel more conflicted and confused than before.

I think that what I'm taking away from this is that the 575 is a more esoteric/artistic choice, while the Imperial is a price/performance winner.

Sincere thanks to all who responded. You've given me lots to think about.

[Jim Soloway]

One slam on the stock Heritage is that the PUs are weak and both the Heritage guitars I had developed the dreaded 12th fret hump. Maybe they have solved that by now, as this was years ago. As to the PUs, I had a long talk with Kent Armstrong about that a few months ago. He does several rewinds a week on stock Heritage guitars. He loves the extra work but is bewildered that Heritage doesn't use better PUs.

...

Now, don't get me wrong... Heritage makes good guitars. But like Jim said, he had to have one built to his specs. Everyone has different experiences with certain guitars and certain companies. I love the Peerless guitars I have had and I have owned a bunch of different ones...... and have had a stellar relationship with the company. Lastly, I have a killer Imperial that I currently play that I wouldn't give up for anything, so different strokes .....yada yada.

Doc Dosco
Peerless Guitars Endorsee

Doc, I appreciate your comments and agree with most of them but I want to address just these two.

About the pickups ... World class pickups are inexpensive and tastes vary so much that I think of it as a really minor issue in all guitars these days. Heritage has used a few different pickups, some that I like (the Seth Lover) some that I don't (the Shaller), and some that are too obscure for me to even comment on (the HRW) but seem to evoke some very extreme opinions in both directions. But with all the great pickups available for $80 to $150, changing the pickup is so easy that I doubt if I would ever consider rewinding any of them and I certainly wouldn't judge a guitar on that basis.

On the second point, and this is probably more important, it wasn't that I had to have a guitar built to my specs but rather that I could get one built to my specs. I had a long list of very specific features that I wanted and some were a dramatic departure from the standard. I wasn't looking for a "good" or "great" guitar. I was looking for a very specific guitar to serve a very specific function. That's something that no other quantity builder would offer me. So Heritage offered me an alternative to a much more expensive and exclusive high end custom builder at a price I could afford.

And a final thought for jazz.fred ... you're right that this has done more to muddy the waters than clear them and the reason for that is that the decisions is not as simple as A vs B. These are two very different companies with two very different philosophies. Both are valid. Both make some very useful products. So the real decision is not which guitar you want but which direction works best for you. If you start with that and come to your answer honestly, you should do just fine regardless which company it points towards.

[jzucker]

One slam on the stock Heritage is that the PUs are weak and both the Heritage guitars I had developed the dreaded 12th fret hump. Maybe they have solved that by now, as this was years ago. As to the PUs, I had a long talk with Kent Armstrong about that a few months ago. He does several rewinds a week on stock Heritage guitars. He loves the extra work but is bewildered that Heritage doesn't use better PUs.

Heritage will use whatever pickups you ask for. They are not like gibson, just sending a dozen guitars a month to the dealer. Each instrument is ordered with whatever options the buyer wants. They are using seymour duncan pickups in most of their guitars. My 2001 Eagle came with HRW pickups which some have said are horrible but I find that it sounds great. Prior to that I had an eagle with schaller pickups and those also sounded great. The whole boutique pickup industry is way overblown IMO.

Now, don't get me wrong... Heritage makes good guitars. But like Jim said, he had to have one built to his specs. Everyone has different experiences with certain guitars and certain companies.

I've had many, many heritage guitars and almost all have been great. There was a period of time where they had problems with tail rises in the fingerboards but I have not seen that issues in the last 15-20 years.

[barrymclark]

Hi Doc,


I think that what I'm taking away from this is that the 575 is a more esoteric/artistic choice, while the Imperial is a price/performance winner.

Sincere thanks to all who responded. You've given me lots to think about.

...no. The 575 punches WAY above its weight. WAYYYYY above its weight. The imperial might have nicer binding and so on. But price/performance.... I'd say in most books Heritage walks away with that one too because it punches so high above its weight. Peerless gets the consistency award though Because Heritage is a custom shop, one 575 may not at all be like the next. That is where Peerless comes in. If you like one, you will very likely like the next.

[docdosco]

Jim,

If Heritage built you your dream guitar, you came out ahead. Like you say, a hand built one built to spec from a good luthier can be big bucks. Peerless will do custom orders, however they are at least 25% above the regular cost, they take 3 months and they are in Korea, so you can't just pick up the phone and talk to someone.

As to the PUs, I remember the ones I had were not that sterling (575 floater and a Super Eagle) but the guitars were well built. You are correct that swapping is easier these days. The one thing that may interest forum members here is that Kent Armstrong will do a rewind (heavier wire and magnets and his special re-wind recipe) and he only charges $70. You ship him the old one, he rewinds and ships it back. The idea being that the housing for the PU you have already (for a floater especially) fits on the guitar, so there are no new holes to drill (if needed) and you save on the case. It's half the price of a KA hand wound from a retail store and for $70, it's a steal. Kent is really an accessible guy, you can call him direct and chat .....and he works out of his garage in Vermont doing custom rewinds. His dad was Dan Armstrong and his son is in London making custom PUs too so it's an interesting musical gadget family.

For Fred, you will have to play the guitar first anyway. Either you will love it or not. Being able to return it on several days approval is crucial. I usually give people a week.

As to Peerless prices, they went up in EU and the UK. Not really so much here. $2100 for an Imperial is a good price. I know the cost, so trust me on that. They are a lot higher overseas. I don't know if it's a currency thing or whatever. They used to list the price on the EU website but I don't see EU prices listed anymore.

Anyway, good luck and happy hunting....

Doc Dosco

PS... I had good relationship with Rendall Wall and Heritage when I was an endorsee. Heritage would be my second choice, that's for sure. Not much of an Eastman fan though. I never warmed up th their guitars much....

[vintagelove]

Interesting that several folks have had issues with Heritage, but still sing their praises over Peerless for what seems like sentimental reasons. Perhaps sentiment is clouding your opinions? I know if I bought my peerless, it had cosmetic flaws, and had to be brought to a tech to play right, or God forbid a 12th fret hump. I wouldn't be happy at all.

I took my monarch out of the box, put some TI's on it, and started playing with a smile on my face.

I will say that heritage probably has the best finishes out there in the reasonably priced market.

i think folks need to get real about guitar companies abilities. I recently picked up a Greco les paul, it is as good as the Gibson I had. In fact, I like the neck profile better. Point is, there are skilled and lazy craftsmen all over the world. Without trying it first, it's extremely hard to predict what your going to get. However, I have heard very few negative comments if any about a peerless, outside of the pickups (which it seems everyone hates every stock pickup that comes in a guitar these days). When you consider the price, it's hard to go wrong.

[docdosco]

Jack,

Thanks for the input. I have been out of the loop on many other guitar brands for a while. Being exclusive with Peerless makes it harder for me to try any other new stuff because I made a commitment to Peerless and I don't buy other guitars anymore. I am happy with the Peerless ones I have so I stick with them.

All I remember is that Heritage was the great Gibson slayer. I don't think that has changed.

vintagelove,

When you get a good sounding and feeling Peerless, especially restrung with TI strings (which I use) it is a truly a 'player's' guitar at a bargain price. Not everyone agrees, of course, but Peerless does have a charm about them.

Doc Dosco

[barrymclark]

Interesting that several folks have had issues with Heritage, but still sing their praises over Peerless for what seems like sentimental reasons. Perhaps sentiment is clouding your opinions? I know if I bought my peerless, it had cosmetic flaws, and had to be brought to a tech to play right, or God forbid a 12th fret hump. I wouldn't be happy at all.

I took my monarch out of the box, put some TI's on it, and started playing with a smile on my face.

I will say that heritage probably has the best finishes out there in the reasonably priced market.

i think folks need to get real about guitar companies abilities. I recently picked up a Greco les paul, it is as good as the Gibson I had. In fact, I like the neck profile better. Point is, there are skilled and lazy craftsmen all over the world. Without trying it first, it's extremely hard to predict what your going to get. However, I have heard very few negative comments if any about a peerless, outside of the pickups (which it seems everyone hates every stock pickup that comes in a guitar these days). When you consider the price, it's hard to go wrong.

I am not so sure sentiment can be taken out of the equation. Those issues were fairly limited with Heritage. Frustrating for those it happened to, sure. I'd be annoyed as hell if it happened to me, too but from what I have seen even the small issues didn't seem to happen much and were often handled somewhere between Heritage and the dealer. Peerless makes fine instruments. No question to me there. I think the bigger problem is these guitars, just from specs on the Peerless and my time on a 575 are VERY different guitars. Plugged in, it gets even moreso. Granted, they are both short scale and solid... but that seems to be where the similarities end. If the question really is between these two, then the next question is what sound are you after?

All I remember is that Heritage was the great Gibson slayer. I don't think that has changed.

It hasn't. That's about it. Heritage is great if you are looking in the Gibson area of guitars. VERY tough to beat without spending serious amounts of cash. That being said, if you are TRULY after a Gibson I don't think Heritage will truly fill the cup. It might come close or surprise... but often there is a sentiment there that simply can't be satisfied by anything but the Gibson they are after. Plus.... THUNK. Heritage can have some of that... but not like some of the Gibsons I have played.

I think Jack is preparing a book on The Art of Thunk.

[eddy b.]

I play a Heritage H 575 Custom with the HRW pickups. It's the only arch top I'll ever need. I've gigged for ten years issue free. Highly recommended.

[Jim Soloway]

Interesting that several folks have had issues with Heritage, but still sing their praises over Peerless for what seems like sentimental reasons. Perhaps sentiment is clouding your opinions? I know if I bought my peerless, it had cosmetic flaws, and had to be brought to a tech to play right, or God forbid a 12th fret hump. I wouldn't be happy at all.

I'd agree with the bit about the 12th fret hump (which is structural) but a cosmetic flaw and a poor setup don't mean much to me. Different players have different needs in a setup so it's impossible to get it right for everyone and I'm much more interested in how the guitar plays and sounds after the setup is done than whether there's a cosmetic flaw. Everyone has their own priorities though and if the Peerless fits yours better, then I fully understand and accept that but I can assure you that there's absolutely zero sentiment in my feelings. I already said that I liked my Peerless a lot and sometimes wish that I still had it but the fact is that the Heritage (albeit with a bit of added effort) sounds better and for my needs, plays better. In the end, that's all I care about.