thunk and Gibson Archtop Guitars

[Stringswinger]

The Master at work. A Gibson 175 and a Polytone amp.

If Gibson ever makes that version of a 175, I will buy one!

[Max405]

By comparison, the absence of thunk.

jp20 into a music man.

by the way guys, is there a more heavenly tune?

Joe Pass - in a class of his own. There's everyone else and then there's Joe. I don't deserve to have the same first name as him. From now on, call me Ted..

[Greentone]

Is this thunk? I always thought it was.

Joe,

It is _great_ tone and fine playing, but no, I don't think of that as being thunk.

GT

[Greentone]

I think jads57 is onto something. I have always thought that the heavy flats, wooden bridge, maple top, relatively thin pick (typically a Fender 151 medium) are involved in thunking.

The guitars I owned that had the most thunk were my ES-175 and my ES-125T. Oddly, the 125T had scads of thunk. You could hear it acoustically as well as electrically. So, yes, a thinline can thunk.

[Max405]

Joe,

It is _great_ tone and fine playing, but no, I don't think of that as being thunk.

GT

Thanks GT. I'm afraid I might not have any thunk in me. My ears or my hands. I'll probably never get it. My next guitar after a Tal will probably be a jp20. Or maybe a Rickenbacker..

[Stringswinger]

Joe,

The JP-20 may not have any thunk, but for that D'Aquisto/Bennedetto/Ibanez "clarity in spades" jazz sound, it does the trick. The JP-20 is useful for playing gigs in really dark rooms where amp EQ does not eliminate enough mud. And Joe Pass played one. That is good enough for me. In my world, there are two jazz guitarists who are head and shoulders above all others, Joe Pass and Wes Montgomery. They are my masters, having lit a musical pathway that I shall follow for all of my days.

Still, I would love to have a "Joe Pass" 175 like the one (actually two) that Gibson made for him before he died. Why Gibson has not made a production version of that guitar is a mystery. I know that there was a great deal of acrimony among Joe's heirs after his death. Perhaps that is the reason why this guitar has not been made (who would get the royalties? Ah, the corruption of money...)

You sound great on that Lester. I have always enjoyed using a Lester for jazz, though the 10 pound weight of my Lester keeps me from taking it out much these days.

Cheers,

Marc

[Max405]

Thanks SS, got a lot of respect for you bro.
I really do want a jp20, for the guitar and Joe's signature on the label.
JD

[jzucker]

The 775 is close but very heavy build and bright

Joe,

The JP-20 may not have any thunk, but for that D'Aquisto/Bennedetto/Ibanez "clarity in spades" jazz sound, it does the trick. The JP-20 is useful for playing gigs in really dark rooms where amp EQ does not eliminate enough mud. And Joe Pass played one. That is good enough for me. In my world, there are two jazz guitarists who are head and shoulders above all others, Joe Pass and Wes Montgomery. They are my masters, having lit a musical pathway that I shall follow for all of my days.

Still, I would love to have a "Joe Pass" 175 like the one (actually two) that Gibson made for him before he died. Why Gibson has not made a production version of that guitar is a mystery. I know that there was a great deal of acrimony among Joe's heirs after his death. Perhaps that is the reason why this guitar has not been made (who would get the royalties? Ah, the corruption of money...)

You sound great on that Lester. I have always enjoyed using a Lester for jazz, though the 10 pound weight of my Lester keeps me from taking it out much these days.

Cheers,

Marc

[silverfoxx]

Hi Joe & Marc,
Can't but help noticing your conversation re the JP20.
and I hope you don't object to me intruding upon it,
I acquired mine new in 1983 , just before I found my
Jazz mentor & tutor , who was a good friend of Joe's,
who periodically visited the UK and I the pleasure of
meeting him a couple of times. He brought his own
JP 20 and we swapped instruments while he showed
me a few of his licks etc., needless to say he was a
character, a very nice guy willing to impart knowledge
readily to those of us not even in the same ballpark,
I digress, there is often criticism of the guitar usually
about the pickup position, which really should have
been closer to the end of the fretboard, Nevertheless
it was a great guitar and like most of us I regret selling
even though I got double the cost I paid for it. But,
the provenance! ! Joe had actually played it. (I must
have had an aberration}.btw Louis Stewart dropped by
my Tutor's house on another day , played the JP20
and was impressed by it. ( Sorry about the name
dropping , just trying to make the point here )

regards Alan.

[Vladan]

Thunk is the sound of inefficiency, body not excited enough to fully resonate, strings not being plucked hard enough, all combined with the sound of a ported box, like bass reflex speaker cabinet. Any guitar will have thunk if you play it soft enough, just put a mic really close (adding some proximity lo freqs in the process) and turn up the volume on the playback end and you'll hear it. Flat wound strings do help a lot in reducing resonation and bringing the thunk into focus.

[Max405]

Silverfoxx, that is a great story.
as tough as I was growing up, I would have been intimidated by Joe. If I ever had the chance to meet him, I probably wouldn't even tell him I played, because I wouldn't want to embarrass myself if a guitar ended up in my hands while I was in his presence.
I would love have a jp20 with his original signature on the label. Then, I'd have signed guitars by both of my heroes. Johnny Smith and Joe Pass. Those and the signed boxing gloves I got from Sugar Ray Robinson, I'm all set!!!
Great post. Sorry guys. Back to your thunk stuff ( that I still don't understand)

[Max405]

Thunk is the sound of inefficiency, body not excited enough to fully resonate, strings not being plucked hard enough, all combined with the sound of a ported box, like bass reflex speaker cabinet. Any guitar will have thunk if you play it soft enough, just put a mic really close (adding some proximity lo freqs in the process) and turn up the volume on the playback end and you'll hear it. Flat wound strings do help a lot in reducing resonation and bringing the thunk into focus.

Great explanation! I could do that!

[John A.]

I actually think there's some thunk in this.

John

[silverfoxx]

Joe,
My late Tutor knew all of the Jazz greats ,and although he attained a
Masters Degree in Music ( specialist subject Jazz ) he regarded his
friend Joe Pass as a musical genius , and who are we to disagree?
I will not indulge in reeling off the names of some the huge stars that
I had the privilege to meet at first hand, all of whom were household
names in the Jazz world. I regret that none of their skills rubbed off on
me, I just remained in awe of them.
I can assure you that you would not have been intimidated or embarrassed
in JP's presence, he was very friendly and witty, and made one feel at ease.
If I had lived in the USA I would have loved to have taken tuition from him.
Anyway ,you're a better player than you thunk ! so come on we want to hear
Night and Day.



Best, Silverfoxx

[grahambop]

Back to your thunk stuff ( that I still don't understand)

I think you can hear the difference here. This clip was played on an Ibanez Artist solid body. It sounds nice and mellow but the tone is quite 'light', there is no 'thunk'.

Compare to this one on the Gibson 175 (Out of Nowhere) . The overall tone is not that different, but there's a sort of punchy, 'pluck-y' sound to the attack of the notes. That's what I think of as the 'thunk'.

https://soundcloud.com/grahambop/out-of-nowhere

[Para]

Couldn't care less, if I like the sound of a guitar that's good enough for me I can't be bothered with obsessions and chasing holy grails I just want to play music.

[grahambop]

Couldn't care less, if I like the sound of a guitar that's good enough for me I can't be bothered with obsessions and chasing holy grails I just want to play music.

I'm a bit like that too. As I seem to get quite a similar tone out of my solid guitar and my archtop, there doesn't seem much point in buying a 3rd guitar!

I don't even know what all those different Gibsons are called. I had to look up Tal Farlow's guitar to find out it was an ES 350! It said it was the same guitar Barney Kessel used to play. I didn't know that either!

[LtKojak]

I must be very slow and completely tone-deaf, as I, even after carefully hearing each and every one of the examples given, plus after carefully reading the descriptions posted, I still can't figure out what "thunk" is.

I apologize for not being able to be up to par with most of you, guys.

Yours very truly,

[barrymclark]

I know the 'thunk' you speak of. I can't say it is a consideration when I take to a guitar but I do note when it is there. My guitars range from from thunkful to thunkless. My old Peerless Epi E'Reg has the most thunk of all my guitars and my Gretsch 6120 double cut has the least.

[destinytot]

Thunk is the sound of inefficiency, body not excited enough to fully resonate, strings not being plucked hard enough, all combined with the sound of a ported box, like bass reflex speaker cabinet. Any guitar will have thunk if you play it soft enough, just put a mic really close (adding some proximity lo freqs in the process) and turn up the volume on the playback end and you'll hear it. Flat wound strings do help a lot in reducing resonation and bringing the thunk into focus.

Love this.

[destinytot]

Is everyone realizing Joe's nice example of thunk is accomplished finger style...

JP on a classical - thunk?

[Vladan]

Is everyone realizing Joe's nice example of thunk is accomplished finger style...

Yes, except on the opening 2 strummed chords. That's where guitar is fully excited, resonates and there's no thunk.

Also, if strings are played so lightly not to make body resonate at all, there's also no thunk, just the sound of the string moving in the air. Happens mostly on thinner plain strings.

[Greentone]

Jimmy Bruno tells a story about how his father taught him jazz guitar. He says his father told him (something like), "you can do this, or you can do that." (I think he was discussing ways of working with II-V-I moves.)

For my money, in jazz electric guitar (mainstream), "you can do this, or you can do that." The L-5CES sound is airy on top and beautifully silky-smooth throughout the sonic range. Overall, it is sublime. However, to my ear, it is not thunky. The ES-350, ES-175, Switchmaster (ES-5), etc., are also gorgeous sounding, but thunky. I am assuming flats on both types of guitars, because I play them on all of my electric archtops.

Both types of jazz tones are completely authentic and viable, as are things like Telecasters, Stratocasters, Les Pauls, ES-335s, and all of the various copies and tribute guitars that have emerged in the last 50 years.

However, when I am playing a ballad, I am generally hearing in my head a Super-400/L-5 sound. When I am playing something more bop influenced, e.g., Alone Together, I am hearing in my head an ES-175 just thunking away.

The reality, though, is that I am probably performing all repertoire on either my Super-V copy (mild thunk), or on my ES-335 (no thunk that I can recall). Both guitars are gorgeous sounding. If I were a hedge fund owner, however, my gigs would be performed on a Super 400 CES or on a vintage ES--350 single pickup (find one of those, these days).

[Max405]

I think you can hear the difference here. This clip was played on an Ibanez Artist solid body. It sounds nice and mellow but the tone is quite 'light', there is no 'thunk'.

Compare to this one on the Gibson 175 (Out of Nowhere) . The overall tone is not that different, but there's a sort of punchy, 'pluck-y' sound to the attack of the notes. That's what I think of as the 'thunk'.

https://soundcloud.com/grahambop/out-of-nowhere

That made sense grahambop. I'm getting there. Thanks buddy.
Joe D

[Patrick2]

Finger style thunk? Just imagin what this would sound like with a hard hitting pick attack.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=2HLUkyv3x50