thunk and Gibson Archtop Guitars

**pingu** · 07-28-2015, 06:02 PM

Originally Posted by pingu

does pat metheny have thunk ?
on the old 175 ?
on the newer ibanez ?

did barney have thunk ?

maybe we're over-thunking this
dunno

bump

did Barney Kessle have thunk ?

**Cunamara** · 07-28-2015, 06:06 PM

Originally Posted by ArchtopHeaven

Yeh i've been following him for a while now, he's definitely top of the class 2015 for me so far.

I listened to some of his solo album samples on YouTube and noticed that these seem not to be improvisations- the YouTube performances I listened to and compared seemed to be pretty much note for note with the album. They are stunning and enjoyable performances to hear and watch but, IMHO without improvisation, not exactly jazz. I couldn't do what he does, though- I could not remember complicated arrangements like that. I'd have to practice three of them for the next 10 years to have them down.

**Archie** · 07-28-2015, 06:38 PM

Originally Posted by Cunamara

I listened to some of his solo album samples on YouTube and noticed that these seem not to be improvisations- the YouTube performances I listened to and compared seemed to be pretty much note for note with the album. They are stunning and enjoyable performances to hear and watch but, IMHO without improvisation, not exactly jazz. I couldn't do what he does, though- I could not remember complicated arrangements like that. I'd have to practice three of them for the next 10 years to have them down.

He comes from the more classical school and I like the fusion, that probably explains why he's more 'arrangement' dominant.

I wonder if this is an improvisation?

As much as it is just stringing together well known language from the 40's etc.

**Wes Green** · 07-28-2015, 07:40 PM

Greentone, how does that Blaster Beam fare with regard to thunk?

**jzucker** · 07-28-2015, 08:39 PM

Originally Posted by ArchtopHeaven

He comes from the more classical school and I like the fusion, that probably explains why he's more 'arrangement' dominant.

I wonder if this is an improvisation?

As much as it is just stringing together well known language from the 40's etc.

Not sure I'd classify him as classical school at all. Nothing in his bio suggests he studied classical. He studied jazz from the very beginning. Bio - Pasquale Grasso

He does play with pick and fingers but that's hardly classical. I don't any fusion or classical music in his playing. I do hear art tatum and charlie parker.

From what I know, he transcribed a ton of art tatum onto guitar and later took up copying bird.

**Archie** · 07-28-2015, 09:46 PM

Originally Posted by jzucker

Not sure I'd classify him as classical school at all. Nothing in his bio suggests he studied classical. He studied jazz from the very beginning. Bio - Pasquale Grasso

He does play with pick and fingers but that's hardly classical. I don't any fusion or classical music in his playing. I do hear art tatum and charlie parker.

From what I know, he transcribed a ton of art tatum onto guitar and later took up copying bird.

Thats interesting. Perhaps I mistook the piano style arrangements, bass movements, voicings and general playing style, as being more akin to the classical guitar style.

Seems pretty good at it for a beginner

**jzucker** · 07-28-2015, 10:13 PM

Originally Posted by ArchtopHeaven

Thats interesting. Perhaps I mistook the piano style arrangements, bass movements, voicings and general playing style, as being more akin to the classical guitar style.

have you listened much to art tatum? Much of his style originates with tatum. Never said he was a beginner. Just that according his bio he started out studying jazz. Why don't you friend him on facebook and ask him and report back your findings? He seems to be a very nice guy. He's answered questions of mine on a couple of occasions.

**Max405** · 07-28-2015, 11:15 PM

Whatever his influence, he is one heck of a player.
If you can play finger style and plectrum, there are no limitations.
I gotta work on my finger style.
JD

**targuit** · 07-29-2015, 02:10 AM

From Pasquale's Bio - "In 2008, Pasquale pursued classical guitar studies in the Music Conservatory of Bologna under Professor Walter Zanetti. During his time at the conservatory, Grasso developed a new approach to the guitar, combining classical tradition with Chuck Wayne's modern technique."

His principle instructor was a disciple of Chuck Wayne. Pasquale also has an association with Barry Harris.

He clearly has some classical influence in his playing as you listen to his version of those Villa Lobos Etudes.

**Archie** · 07-29-2015, 08:09 AM

Originally Posted by jzucker

have you listened much to art tatum? Much of his style originates with tatum. Never said he was a beginner. Just that according his bio he started out studying jazz. Why don't you friend him on facebook and ask him and report back your findings? He seems to be a very nice guy. He's answered questions of mine on a couple of occasions.

Yeh I wasn't meaning to be snide, I was just saying he has a background in classical playing.

I have read before that he is a classical player that likes to fuse jazz but it seems we have gone to different sources.

Either way doesn't matter, great player and a great technique thats refreshing to hear.

**Chimera1to1** · 07-30-2015, 07:21 PM

Originally Posted by Ken Olmstead

My low point, posting in a thread about "thunk," really??!! But...if we look at this topic from 10,000 ft, it is pretty amusing!

Hey Ken I think you have a point but miss the point at the same time

I think a thunk thread is interesting. In the case of JP he had thunk on a Gibson but not on the Ibanez. The fact each recording was completely thunky or completely unthunky, even for a great player, suggests it's inherent in the guitar not the player. For a lot of aspiring players, if they like the thunky Gibson tone, it could save a lot of heartache, time and money having a thread that proves it is not in the fingers and you aren't going to magic that sound out of nowhere with a pickup swap or a different amp.

**kenbennett** · 07-30-2015, 08:26 PM

I think it's interesting. Here's the way I see it so far. There are at least half a dozen different basic sounds that we can get out of a string. By picking at different points along the string with different attacks using different plucking implements and so on we can get quite a few, what you might call, basic sounds from a string. I'm inclined to think that Thunk is one of them.

Let's say there is a T-spot on any string that when touched a certain way produces the thunk impulse.

Then the question becomes, can my guitar thunk back? Can it respond to the thunk impulse?

My theory of the T-spot comes from a bass lesson I saw on the internet. The guy [citation needed] said that he was always asked how to get a good sound. He said it depends on what kind of sound you want. Then he demonstrated on the bass several basic sounds that you can get by plucking the string different ways in different places along the string length.

One of those sounds had a definite thunk. I was able to produce all the same sounds on my bass as the guy in the lesson. Thunk happened when plucking just below the fingerboard with almost half your finger in contact with the string on attack. Even with softer attack farther away from the T-spot I could still hear the inherent thunk in the bass.

My conclusion is that it's partly in the instrument and partly in how you play it. But there has to be blood in the turnip before you can get blood from a turnip.

The turnip needs to be less bright with less sustain to start with. It needs to have a certain narrow-ish, strong midrange harmonic content on attack, i.e the right pick in the right place at the right time with the right force. And if it ain't got punch, it ain't a bloody turnip.

[edit: I was talking about a double bass, not an electric bass. So just below the fingerboard means pretty damn close to the bridge. Somewhere between Jaco and normal people.]

**jzucker** · 07-30-2015, 08:29 PM

I have to disagree with you Ken. I have 7 or 8 archtops and several semis. Certain ones thunk. It doesn't matter whether I play electrically or acoustically, with my thumb or what kind of pick I use. It's there in the attack. It comes from a slightly muffled response which I believe has to do partially with the top thickness, construction, bracing, etc. It's not something that can be induced.

No matter where I pick or how I'm picking or what I'm using to attack the string, my 175 thunks. My heritage eagle does not under the same variation.

Originally Posted by kenbennett

I think it's interesting. Here's the way I see it so far. There are at least half a dozen different basic sounds that we can get out of a string. By picking at different points along the string with different attacks using different plucking implements and so on we can get quite a few, what you might call, basic sounds from a string. I'm inclined to think that Thunk is one of them.

Let's say there is a T-spot on any string that when touched a certain way produces the thunk impulse.

Then the question becomes, can my guitar thunk back? Can it respond to the thunk impulse?

My theory of the T-spot comes from a bass lesson I saw on the internet. The guy [citation needed] said that he was always asked how to get a good sound. He said it depends on what kind of sound you want. Then he demonstrated on the bass several basic sounds that you can get by plucking the string different ways in different places along the string length.

One of those sounds had a definite thunk. I was able to produce all the same sounds on my bass as the guy in the lesson. Thunk happened when plucking just below the fingerboard with almost half your finger in contact with the string on attack. Even with softer attack farther away from the T-spot I could still hear the inherent thunk in the bass.

My conclusion is that it's partly in the instrument and partly in how you play it. But there has to be blood in the turnip before you can get blood from a turnip.

The turnip needs to be less bright with less sustain to start with. It needs to have a certain narrow-ish, strong midrange harmonic content on attack, i.e the right pick in the right place at the right time with the right force. And if it ain't got punch, it ain't a bloody turnip.

**kenbennett** · 07-30-2015, 08:36 PM

Jack, on the instruments that have thunk, can you control it. That is, bring out more thunk or less. Or do you always hear it no matter how you play?

**kenbennett** · 07-30-2015, 08:38 PM

Also, do you ever get thunk from a solid body?

**vintagelove** · 07-30-2015, 10:29 PM

Originally Posted by jzucker

I have to disagree with you Ken. I have 7 or 8 archtops and several semis. Certain ones thunk. It doesn't matter whether I play electrically or acoustically, with my thumb or what kind of pick I use. It's there in the attack. It comes from a slightly muffled response which I believe has to do partially with the top thickness, construction, bracing, etc. It's not something that can be induced.

No matter where I pick or how I'm picking or what I'm using to attack the string, my 175 thunks. My heritage eagle does not under the same variation.

I completely agree and can hear it. If you don't mind I have a couple questions, since Gibson no longer makes a lefty 175, I'm considering having one built.

have you played a Gibson arch top that didn't thunk? Laminate and solid? How about non Gibsons that thunked?

i have a Eastman ar371, a nice guitar, but not really like a 175 at all. What struck me when I picked up a 175 was how much heavier it was than the Eastman. I would venture to say it's more than the top that is thick. Second question,

how thick is too thick for a top?

thoughts on glue contributing to the equation?

thanks.

**jzucker** · 07-30-2015, 10:48 PM

Originally Posted by vintagelove

I completely agree and can hear it. If you don't mind I have a couple questions, since Gibson no longer makes a lefty 175, I'm considering having one built.

have you played a Gibson arch top that didn't thunk? Laminate and solid? How about non Gibsons that thunked?

For full hollow guitars, I think most of their guitars made after 1980 have some thunk to them. Earlier than that, the builds on the L5s were a little lighter and sounded more like the heritage eagle which does not thunk. Of course, the thicker, plywood guitars like the 175 will thunk more than the solid top guitars and there is more thunk in the mid '60s and later 175s than the '50s 175s.

I have not played too many non gibsons that thunked. The holst and painter archtops do not thunk. Neither does the sadowsky or benedettos that I've played. My guild x-500 thunks just a teeny weeny bit. I have not played the maple ply guilds in a long time so I can't tell you if they do or not. Some say they sound like a 175 but I doubt it since the X500 sounds nothing like an L5.

The japanese plywood guitars like the Aria Herb Ellis and various 175 copies by greco , ibanez and aria do thunk and so does the ibanez FG100 though it's a brighter guitar.

i have a Eastman ar371, a nice guitar, but not really like a 175 at all. What struck me when I picked up a 175 was how much heavier it was than the Eastman. I would venture to say it's more than the top that is thick. Second question,

how thick is too thick for a top?

Not sure and I don't know whether that's the key or not. I do know that no full hollow eastman i've ever played had a thunk to it although the el rey has some. The 371 and 380 do not thunk. I think the build is too light as is the bracing. I don't know if you could just order an eastman with a 1/16" thicker top and have it thunk or not but I doubt it.

thoughts on glue contributing to the equation?

thanks.

I doubt it since the key to a good glue joint on plywood is to have a minimal amount of glue. Also, in the last few weeks I have played a '57 175 and bought a '63 Barney Kessel (spruce). The kessel has more thunk than the '57 175.

I would look for a used lefty 175 rather than have one built. The problem as I see it is that nobody really wants to make a 175. Holst and Painter "improved" the 175 and created plywood that sounds more like solid tops. They succeeded but ended up with a guitar that with its improvements doesn't really have a 175 vibe. I think eastman has done the same thing. If you really want thunk, I'd stick with a gibson plywood guitar.

What about a 120? Those have plenty of thunk and being non-cutaway, I would think you could string them up left handed without a huge problem.

Heritage could do it too. The 550 has plenty of thunk. Not exactly like a 175 though.

Here's a really old and poor recording I did on a 550. You can hear the thunk.

**pingu** · 07-31-2015, 04:14 PM

Originally Posted by pingu

bump
did Barney Kessle have thunk ?

bumpitty bump

Barney ...... he thunk ?

**rsclosson** · 07-31-2015, 04:24 PM

Frankly I am glad this thread came to be. It helped me identify what I look for in the sound of a great jazz guitar. And it made me realize why I make friend with some guitars immediately and others just don't do it for me. I had never been able to verbalize it before.

**Ken Olmstead** · 07-31-2015, 06:19 PM

Originally Posted by Chimera1to1

Hey Ken I think you have a point but miss the point at the same time

I think a thunk thread is interesting. In the case of JP he had thunk on a Gibson but not on the Ibanez. The fact each recording was completely thunky or completely unthunky, even for a great player, suggests it's inherent in the guitar not the player. For a lot of aspiring players, if they like the thunky Gibson tone, it could save a lot of heartache, time and money having a thread that proves it is not in the fingers and you aren't going to magic that sound out of nowhere with a pickup swap or a different amp.

I am not trying to be condescending in any way, I am just chuckling as it is amusing to me.

I too am guilty. I have participated in many "sound vs. sound" threads. Modulation pedals that sound "3D", mandolins that have "woof or bark," solid body guitars that are "light and resonate vs heavy and dense." I think my head is currently in space that is saying that I need to advance my chops and stop concerning myself with incremental matters of "tone."

I would not have even looked in this thread but my respect for JZ, his playing and experience with way more guitars than I will ever have access to in Alaska! When I have the chops of JZ, then I will worry more about "thunk."

So to sum up, it's not you, it's me and I still find it amusing.

**rmpmcdermott** · 07-31-2015, 06:34 PM

Originally Posted by Greentone

The guitars I owned that had the most thunk were my ES-175 and my ES-125T. Oddly, the 125T had scads of thunk. You could hear it acoustically as well as electrically. So, yes, a thinline can thunk.

My 125-TC has a ton of thunk, so I agree there. Also, I use a Jazz iii, which isn't exactly a thin pick. I actually thought a thicker pick would get more thunk, but others here are much more knowledgeable than I am so I could be wrong.

Also, Greentone: Your avatar is the front screen picture on my iPhone. My absolute favorite. Grant Green could get some thunk out of that ES-330 and that's thinline too!