Guitar > X > Powered speaker

[jads57]

What a musician hears, finite microscopic tonal differences.
What the audience hears, their favorite pop song!

I think approaching this issue from what works in the studio,might be the path to follow. In other words, using some type of modeling device as opposed to expecting it to react like an old traditional amp.
Even something simple as an old Boss Micro Cube direct out.

[Christian Miller]

What a musician hears, finite microscopic tonal differences.
What the audience hears, their favorite pop song!

I think approaching this issue from what works in the studio,might be the path to follow. In other words, using some type of modeling device as opposed to expecting it to react like an old traditional amp.
Even something simple as an old Boss Micro Cube direct out.

I think you are 100% right

Also confirmation bias is huge


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[Alter]

When i first started touring, i got the Radial Twin DI, the Pro D2. Lifesaver. I put it on the end of my pedalboard and could play anywhere direct, or use this to go to the house instead of whatever cheapish DIs they would have. Big difference. I used it for acoustic/nylon and electric, or sometimes for stereo acoustic or electric with piezos for a while.

I think on many devices it may be the lack of space not the cost that keeps them from adding an XLR output, because as useful as it is, it is pretty low on the list after stereo outputs, headphones, loop, stereo ins, control pedals etc etc.. Like Quilter Phantom block only has an XLR output and i have to improvise if i want to connect it to anything else other than a mixer. Balanced outs is a decent alternative at least!

[Christian Miller]

When i first started touring, i got the Radial Twin DI, the Pro D2. Lifesaver. I put it on the end of my pedalboard and could play anywhere direct, or use this to go to the house instead of whatever cheapish DIs they would have. Big difference. I used it for acoustic/nylon and electric, or sometimes for stereo acoustic or electric with piezos for a while.

I think on many devices it may be the lack of space not the cost that keeps them from adding an XLR output, because as useful as it is, it is pretty low on the list after stereo outputs, headphones, loop, stereo ins, control pedals etc etc.. Like Quilter Phantom block only has an XLR output and i have to improvise if i want to connect it to anything else other than a mixer. Balanced outs is a decent alternative at least!

Yeah because many people shopping for this stuff are of course home users for who headphone jacks and USB’s are essential. Secondly effects loops are really important to people running high gain amp models. Which is another big chunk of the market.

Some users would question putting an XLR on a unit without an effects loop. Not me because I am the 1% of the market who just wants to run clean amp models haha.

I do get it.

That said, the quilter phantom block is a very small device with a very specific use case, so I’m not sure it counts. They managed to squeeze a balanced jack output, headphone out, speaker out, FX loop and an XLR out on the Superblock US which is still a very compact unit.

So it can be done if it’s a priority.

I also never thought out was a cost thing.

Were you running a modeller on your pedal board as well as using the Radial?

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[Alter]

Not a modeler, i was using a sansamp blonde and a bunch of analog pedals, also a second small chain for acoustic, both feeding the double DI. I 've only used digital on theatre, never on like bands and live music.

[rpjazzguitar]

It's not unusual, apparently, for pro players to use a Sansamp to go into a PA without a guitar amp. And that seems to be well-accepted.

At the same time, there are few players who use a small powered speaker instead of a guitar amp, and the explanation seems to be that guitar amps color the sound in an essential way - and that PA-clean doesn't sound as good. Which, btw, is my experience.

With the Joyo clone of a Sansamp blonde going for about $40, why don't I hear, more often, about somebody using the Joyo (or Sansamp) into a small powered speaker, instead of using a guitar amp? Seems to me that, if it wouldn't sound good, touring pros wouldn't be doing what amounts to the same thing, albeit with more power. A signal chain with the Joyo and, say, an Alto TS408 would be powerful, lightweight and, presumably, sound good.

What am I missing?

[Hep To The Jive]

With the Joyo clone of a Sansamp blonde going for about $40, why don't I hear, more often, about somebody using the Joyo (or Sansamp) into a small powered speaker, instead of using a guitar amp? Seems to me that, if it wouldn't sound good, touring pros wouldn't be doing what amounts to the same thing, albeit with more power. A signal chain with the Joyo and, say, an Alto TS408 would be powerful, lightweight and, presumably, sound good.

What am I missing?

That is exactly what I'm contemplating of doing. Only I think more flat response speaker, like Headrush, I don't think the Alto is that?

Primarily I would need it for events, not club gigging, because all the clubs here have amps like Fender twin, so it's taking care of, but events you got nothing and people just bring DIs. But then your whole sound depends on, more often than not, on morons who are running it. Very frustrating. I'd already bought it, but unfortunately I don't have that many gigs like that, not as much as I wish. Some people are getting rich of it here, and I aint, damn... But that's another story.

[Christian Miller]

“House Fender Twin” is the most beautiful sentence in the English language

Though tbh I’d be happy with a Hot Rod


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[rpjazzguitar]

The last time I used a house Fender Twin, when I finally got a solo and turned up my volume, the bass frequencies bloomed and my guitar sounded like an album of whale singing - and I probably should apologize to the whales. Presumably, this was more of a bug than a feature.

The last time I used a house amp was a couple of weeks ago. I was sitting in. It was a Peavey modeling amp that required a mode change to access the EQ or reverb (or so I think) and I didn't know which knob changed modes. It was dark and the band was in a hurry to start the next tune. I was not able to dial it in -- and that was my second time with it -- after the first time I read the manual and I still couldn't do it in the dark a few days later.

Point being, that in the low-rent surroundings that I often play in, I dread having to use the house amp.

For Hep: I mentioned that Alto because it has a good rep, it's not heavy and it's not expensive. I don't know how flat the response is.
I use a JBL Eon One Compact. I don't know how FRFR it is either, but the EQ is very flexible. It sounds good enough with guitar>ME70>Joyo>JBL. I'm not saying it sounds better than something heavier, more expensive or better engineered. But, I can get "acceptable". With the built-in mixer, which is what I'd call full featured, I can get guitar and vocals through one 19 lb unit. Plus, the weight of the Joyo, Joyo power supply and a short cable. Please report back about your results if you go this route.

[Cunamara]

With the Joyo clone of a Sansamp blonde going for about $40, why don't I hear, more often, about somebody using the Joyo (or Sansamp) into a small powered speaker, instead of using a guitar amp?

I've run my SansAmp into my Alto TS110A quite a few times. It's really, really dry- definitely needs reverb or something. Guitar amps seem to have a bit of cabinet resonance and the Alto does not. I've also run the SansAmp into a QSC 8" powered speaker a bunch of times and it sounded much better- warmer, a bit more resonant, guitar-like. Not all FRFR is created equal, it seems. The QSC is much better, although it also cost four times as much or more.



FWIW the Alto has turned out to be a piece of trash. A few years back I had to ship it to them after the voice coil in the speaker crapped out with probably less than 100 hours of play time on it (and I, like Jim Hall, don't play loud. It's the only thing my playing has in common with Jim's). Now it makes harsh screaming noises if I turn it on. I don't know if this is representative of their products, but this one at least is a lemon.

[pauln]

GUITAR > X > POWERED SPEAKER

My powered speaker is one of my Fender tube amps.
I'm "barefoot" dead clean, X = good instrument cable.
No mics, monitors, PA or other sound reinforcement.
Nice Jazz trio, naturally comfortable sound, great fun.

[Hep To The Jive]

My powered speaker is one of my Fender tube amps.
I'm "barefoot" dead clean, X = good instrument cable.
No mics, monitors, PA or other sound reinforcement.
Nice Jazz trio, naturally comfortable sound, great fun.

oh wow, how come I never thought of that.

[rpjazzguitar]

I've run my SansAmp into my Alto TS110A quite a few times. It's really, really dry- definitely needs reverb or something. Guitar amps seem to have a bit of cabinet resonance and the Alto does not. I've also run the SansAmp into a QSC 8" powered speaker a bunch of times and it sounded much better- warmer, a bit more resonant, guitar-like. Not all FRFR is created equal, it seems. The QSC is much better, although it also cost four times as much or more.



FWIW the Alto has turned out to be a piece of trash. A few years back I had to ship it to them after the voice coil in the speaker crapped out with probably less than 100 hours of play time on it (and I, like Jim Hall, don't play loud. It's the only thing my playing has in common with Jim's). Now it makes harsh screaming noises if I turn it on. I don't know if this is representative of their products, but this one at least is a lemon.

My one experience with purchasing an Alto was that it was delivered badly broken even though the carton was ok. GC issued a prompt refund. But, I see them around a lot and they sound ok, not that I've A/B'ed them with any other product.

I've been playing through the ME70>Joyo American>JBL and it has worked. The Joyo warms up the sound. Drive and voice at 9 o'clock, level at 3pm, eq all near noon.

But tonight, I played in a sextet that was a lot louder than what I usually do. The highest notes sounded screechy. I have to figure that out.

[Cunamara]

Bearing in mind that you are an older guy like me, it might be helpful to get a sanity check from someone whose hearing hasn't yet changed with age. I have a suspicion that how things sound to me is no longer the same as it would sound to other people, given that I've got some high-end hearing loss and chronic tinnitus. I don't wear hearing aids yet and I don't know if you do, but I know the frequency response of those can be an issue.

Since I am no longer using an amp at gigs or rehearsals, I am going to in-ear monitors where I can keep the volume really low and have noise canceling to remove the room sound. Hopefully I can protect my hearing this way as well as being able to hear all the other instruments better and to hear myself as the audience hears me (rather than my amp firing away at my knees). I have Shures. I have a set of custom fitted -25 dB musician earplugs, but that was never entirely satisfactory even though my ears really appreciated them. Maybe the -25 dB was too big a drop.

[rpjazzguitar]

I have hearing aids. They're helpful for conversation, not so much for music. Music can sound tinny with them and more dull without them. I can't tell what other people are hearing. I have learned that I can't mix - I can't judge the high frequencies.

I usually play without the hearing aids. I don't get complaints about my guitar tone, but people generally don't want to say anything negative.

[m_d]

My Metro Toob speaker + Quilter Superblock turned into a powered speaker when I bought a Nano Cortex pedal. That rig sounds and feels perfect to me. It's more of a desktop amp to me, I never play loud and do not always plug in. Those profiler pedals give the option to try many different amps, thought I'm settled on a handful of clean profiles from Neural DSP's Tweed Deluxe and ODS models. The effects are all I would ever need. The learning curve is reasonable. The technology is kind of amazing. That may be overkill for my needs. In a recent video Danish guitarist Morten Foerestrand said a Boss Cube amp, an amp that can be found used almost for free, is one of his favorites for jazz cleans.

[Christian Miller]

My one experience with purchasing an Alto was that it was delivered badly broken even though the carton was ok. GC issued a prompt refund. But, I see them around a lot and they sound ok, not that I've A/B'ed them with any other product.

I've been playing through the ME70>Joyo American>JBL and it has worked. The Joyo warms up the sound. Drive and voice at 9 o'clock, level at 3pm, eq all near noon.

But tonight, I played in a sextet that was a lot louder than what I usually do. The highest notes sounded screechy. I have to figure that out.

Doesn't the ME70 have built in amp sims? Or do you switch them off and use the Joyo?

[Christian Miller]

My powered speaker is one of my Fender tube amps.
I'm "barefoot" dead clean, X = good instrument cable.
No mics, monitors, PA or other sound reinforcement.
Nice Jazz trio, naturally comfortable sound, great fun.

It would be lovely if all gigs were this simple. They are not.

[Christian Miller]

My Metro Toob speaker + Quilter Superblock turned into a powered speaker when I bought a Nano Cortex pedal. That rig sounds and feels perfect to me. It's more of a desktop amp to me, I never play loud and do not always plug in. Those profiler pedals give the option to try many different amps, thought I'm settled on a handful of clean profiles from Neural DSP's Tweed Deluxe and ODS models. The effects are all I would ever need. The learning curve is reasonable. The technology is kind of amazing. That may be overkill for my needs. In a recent video Danish guitarist Morten Foerestrand said a Boss Cube amp, an amp that can be found used almost for free, is one of his favorites for jazz cleans.

I love the old cubes. Boss COSM technology is fine for most of our applications. Most jazzers need a good clean, a bit of delay and reverb as required, and at most maybe a smooth fusion-y lead sound.

Where I really notice the more expensive modellers, to my ears, is in the real lo-fi break up sounds, like various cranked vintage tube amps, and the very distorted progressive metal tones. 20 year old Boss tech isn't good at that stuff. But it's fine at doing a drive pedal going into a Fender Twin.

I'm basically doing the bargain basement version of the same thing with my Boss GT1 that I bought for £100 into the back of my Quilter/Toob. Also great in the return of my AER. I agree with (gear YouTuber) John Nathan Cordy who seems to have made a zillion videos on his GT1 (which is why I bought it) that it's perfectly OK. And he has some nice high end gear. If I was shopping now I'd buy the GX-1, which is better, but not that much.

The Quilter is good too, although I think you need to be careful about the top end.

It's funny, having mavened guitar amp sims cheap and pricey for about week, I have come to the conclusion that what I have is fine. But if I get a load of theatre or festival stuff I might buy something better.

TBH aside from workflow and elaborate routing etc, I think a lot of the high end IRs and things the Neural DSP stuff is felt more in recordings. A lot of discourse in modelling at the moment seems to be about the IR's. But, my feeling is IR's actually get in the way a bit live.

[Cunamara]

I love the old cubes. Boss COSM technology is fine for most of our applications. Most jazzers need a good clean, a bit of delay and reverb as required, and at most maybe a smooth fusion-y lead sound.

...

The Quilter is good too, although I think you need to be careful about the top end.

I have a COSM Cube 60, which has lived at a bass player friend's house for probably five years or more. Long enough that my wife has forgotten I have that one. It's a reliable, decent sounding amp. I usually use the tweed setting on it and I'm generally pretty happy with it. I've had that at least 15 years and bought it used then for $200.

I briefly had a Quilter 101R which just didn't have enough volume through my TOOB. It was bright on the top end, but the "capacitor trick" worked like a charm (I used a .047). I really liked the sound of that amp, if it had only been capable of enough volume to gig with.

[rpjazzguitar]

Doesn't the ME70 have built in amp sims? Or do you switch them off and use the Joyo?

There is an allegation in the manual that the ME70 has a cab sim. The effect is subtle to the point of imperceptible.

It also has a bunch of preamp sims, none of which I like. And, that was true for the ME80 and ME90 as well.

So, at present I'm going guitar>ME70 (for reverb, volume pedal and harmonizer on zero at different wetness levels)>Joyo> JBL.

Joyo is set with voice and drive at 9 o'clock. Level at 3. BMT all near noon.

It's been fine for big band, although I have to cut some bass frequencies. It's been fine for guitar/voice and good for quiet quartet. Last night, I played in a loud sextet and the high end was screechy. Don't know why yet.

[Christian Miller]

There is an allegation in the manual that the ME70 has a cab sim. The effect is subtle to the point of imperceptible.

It also has a bunch of preamp sims, none of which I like. And, that was true for the ME80 and ME90 as well.

So, at present I'm going guitar>ME70 (for reverb, volume pedal and harmonizer on zero at different wetness levels)>Joyo> JBL.

Joyo is set with voice and drive at 9 o'clock. Level at 3. BMT all near noon.

It's been fine for big band, although I have to cut some bass frequencies. It's been fine for guitar/voice and good for quiet quartet. Last night, I played in a loud sextet and the high end was screechy. Don't know why yet.

That sounds like a good solution.

My Joyos all died on me, so I stopped buying them. Good sounding unit.


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[Spook410]

Certainly not professional (I'm a retired engineer not a pro player) and, just a phone recording. But an actual instance of a Joyo American into a powered speaker in the wild...

Oh.. and it should be 'De' Carnival.. not 'Da' in the title. I'll fix that one of these days.

And.. I've been using these pedals for years. Never had one fail or get noisy. It's actually a comparatively simple circuit and the case is bulletproof. On the other hand, seems every time we rely on tech it finds a way to break or get in the way. Still, at $40 the Joyo American is likely the best deal in music gear ever.

[Christian Miller]

My mastering engineer is kind of obsessed with the American Sound - said it was better than a SansAmp. Bear in mind that this is guy who could talk with great knowledge about just about any aspect of audio technology… so ….


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[rpjazzguitar]

Today, I tried to get guitar>ME70>Joyo American>JBL Eon One Compact to sound like guitar>ME70>Little Jazz.

I couldn't get it super close, but I did find something interesting. In order to move the JBL in the direction of the LJ sound, I had to strongly emphasize lower frequencies. Started rolling things off around 200hz, if the phone app is accurate. Maybe the secret to the LJ tone is in reducing highs?

Tomorrow I'll try it without the Joyo.