Will archtops ever see a resurgence in popularity?

[Doug B]

Point to ponder: there are probably more individual luthiers/archtop makers today then there ever were.

[Doctor Jeff]

Taylor Swift is also uniquely good at tapping into the emotional lives of tweens, teens and young adults who find themselves reflected in her songs. She does nothing for me- I find her melodies and harmonies limited and her lyrics insipid, but as a 65 year old guy I am not her target market. Her target market is huge and willing to pay $1000 for a concert ticket, she sure as heck doesn't need me! But that's neither here nor there. Taylor Swift is not going to save the archtop guitar market unless by accident.

At $8-10,000 (or more) a pop for luthier-made high quality instruments, the market is necessarily limited but the economics of bespoke luthiery in the US require those prices to be an economically viable business. Even factory produced archtops like Gibson or Heritage have to be priced close to that range to make it work, hence Gibson heading for the door regarding archtops and sticking with what makes a profit (Les Pauls, etc.). And all archtop makers are competing against the used/vintage market, with vintage instruments being seen as inherently superior for a variety of reasons. Less expensive archtops will be made in places where labor costs and cost of living is much lower- currently China and southeast Asia and probably eventually India and Africa- either though entrenched poverty or economies with extensive government subsidies such as universal health care.

I suspect collectors who viewed archtop guitars as an investment vehicle will be lucky to break even- much as with precious metals and stones, vintage cars, what have you. The resale value of things like that is not inherent and swings in the winds. Own them because you love them and get joy from them. If you want to invest for a profit, there are better strategies that are much more liquid and much easier for your heirs to manage when you die. Whoever dies with the most toys doesn't win, they just leave a bigger mess to clean up.

Point to ponder: there are probably more individual luthiers/archtop makers today then there ever were.

I think some of you are too pessimistic or narrowly focused. It's easy to make an archtop at a reasonable price using current production methods. Gibson could make one for a fraction of what they last sold them for IF they wanted to. (Look at Godin--quality archtops made in North America. Not to mention quality archtops made in Japan and Korea.) Heritage is a lot cheaper than Gibson, and Eastman is even more economical.

There are LOTS of great archtops out there, in fact it's rather hard to find a really mediocre one, at least for the average player. They're made all over the world. GC and similar stores carry 1 or 2 dozen archtops or semis, some in the low hundred $$.

I wouldn't hang it all on Taylor Swift, but if enough younger players in different genres play archies in videos and in concert, people will take notice. Look what Brian Setzer did and still does for Gretsch.

As far as bespoke guitars--it's a golden age of boutique builders out there, if you've got the money.

I think its interesting that a company like Ibanez with such a strong archtop-building history and such a great track record of signing on the best younger players hasn't created any new archtop signature models. The probably understand that potential market or lack of better than anyone, and as far as I know there's no sign that they have lined up an artist to carry forward the Benson, Metheny and Scofield mantle. That says quite a bit to me.

For what its worth I see tons of archtops out there played by swing, country, straightahead and indie rock players in my local scene. But nobody is playing new instruments, or particularly nice ones.

Ibanez is still coming out with new archtop models, like the Metheny PMC3. They still have a pretty wide selection of archtops available. Other than Ibanez, I see the most Gretsches in typical stores (both cheap Asian models and the more expensive ones), plus the few Epiphone models they're currently offering.

Again, I think the term "nice" is relative. Even some swing player playing a low-end Gretsch is playing a decent guitar, even if not a great one.

[Fear the Reaper]

This is an example of what can or could happen. But to be honest I never heard of this guy until this happened.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=si3It9eD...KilKSt0RYnH0iG

BTW Asked a friend who's turning 30 and a guitar instructor for many years. Decline in young people intrested in the guitar. Virtually none intrested in an archtop. Some with acoustic guitars because of TS.

[ThatRhythmMan]

Only time will tell. Who knows what turns music will take. There are some recent examples of archtops on big stages.

Harry Styles has been seen often playing an ES-350T. He seems to have a blonde and a sunburst.



He has also hit the stage with a Super V.




In the poster for the Bob Dylan biopic “A Complete Unknown”, Timothée Chalamet is seen with an Epiphone Triumph. I haven’t seen the film so I have no idea if the Triumph appears.





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[Litterick]

Pop stars are photographed with archtops because they look good. Their fans can see the guitars are just accessories. They are not rushing to the guitar stores to emulate their heroes.

[ThatRhythmMan]

Pop stars are photographed with archtops because they look good. Their fans can see the guitars are just accessories. They are not rushing to the guitar stores to emulate their heroes.

Well, Styles plays them on stage, doesn’t just pose with them. No matter, exposure doesn’t hurt. People who decide to play typically do gravitate toward the instruments their inspirations use or at least ones that look similar. Is Harry Styles inspiring anyone to play guitar? I have no idea.


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[tramline]

Ibanez is still coming out with new archtop models, like the Metheny PMC3. They still have a pretty wide selection of archtops available. Other than Ibanez, I see the most Gretsches in typical stores (both cheap Asian models and the more expensive ones), plus the few Epiphone models they're currently offering.

Again, I think the term "nice" is relative. Even some swing player playing a low-end Gretsch is playing a decent guitar, even if not a great one.

Yeah good point - the PMC3 and the regular refreshes they seem to do to the Artcore range, along with the seeming success of the modern Guild and Gretsch lines is a good sign. For sure none of those are bad guitars in any sense! I more just meant I wonder if we'll see a young player come along associated enough with this type of guitar that one of these mainstream brands would actually launch a new signature archtop.

[Max405]

To me, the Archtop guitar is one of the most beautiful sounding instruments in the world today. When played right and even when just played, nothing can beat it. Solo single note lead melody, chord melody, percussive rhythm playing, the Archtop does it all. No other instrument compares.
To me, a resurgence is imminent.
When George Benson played the intro to Affirmation, it was over for me in capital letters.
The Archtop Guitar. No other instrument compares. Listen to George Micheals “Kissing a Fool”. The way music must sound in heaven.
Joe D

[jads57]

Again are we speaking of Carved Solid Wood Archtops or cheaper Laminate ones.
Johnny Smith, Super 400, D’Angelico D’Aquisto originals? These were made for an era gone by, and very few current acoustic artists use these as opposed to high end Flat Tops

Its not that they aren’t a beautiful instrument, it’s they have a narrower range of application in todays music scene.
Back in the day, they were considered the Stradivarius of guitars!

[Cunamara]

I think some of you are too pessimistic or narrowly focused.

You are probably right. I am in a very pessimistic mood about the world writ large, which may be bleeding over onto specific topics like this.

As far as bespoke guitars--it's a golden age of boutique builders out there, if you've got the money.

That is true. Think about the amazingly dedicated and talented builders out there right now and the guitars they are making. I won't even name them because I'll leave some of them off the list that should be mentioned if any are.

Again, I think the term "nice" is relative. Even some swing player playing a low-end Gretsch is playing a decent guitar, even if not a great one.

You make a good point. When I was first learning the instrument 45 years ago, cheap guitars were a crapshoot in terms of playability and sound, but even then better than was the case in the 60s. My first guitar was a 1978 Takamine F340S, which IIRC cost me $200 new with case in November 1979. I still have it, it is my only steel string flattop and was my only guitar for the first half dozen years. It was very playable out of the box and still is. It is frequently mistaken for a Martin D-18. Just 10 years earlier, a similarly positioned guitar would have been all but unplayable and would have sounded like crap.

Now low end instruments are surprisingly good, perhaps this is more true in electric guitars. I bought a Squier Affinity Telecaster in 2008 and it was good enough to gig on despite being $180 new. CNC machining has made it very cost-effective to make consistent guitars with good fit and finish. I have not played any "affordable" archtops in a long time, the last was an Epiphone Joe Pass at a Guitar Center (which was a very nice guitar). I've never played any of the lower end Ibanez archtops, although I've had a GB10 for 38 years (my second guitar). Truth be told, I really don't need any other guitars than the Takamine and the GB10, but I don't let that stop me!

So, Jeff, I hope your more optimistic take is more correct than mine!

[wintermoon]

archtops will always be in vogue...

love,
all the people that own them

[Gitfiddler]

Guitar players are a curious breed. Unlike keyboard, horn or violin players, we have a ton of instrument types that we can experiment with. Guitars are addictive to some of us. Our natural curiosity leads us to try new and different guitars. Archtops have always been a seductive guitar to me, even as a youthful beginner. As a 12 year old taking lessons from a stodgy old teacher, I loved checking out his huge acoustic Gibson archtop. It was hypnotic and distracting to watch him bring such thick, beautiful music out of it. That lead me to ordering Gibson catalogues back in the 60's, where I stared at all of those wonderful guitars, especially the archtops. Even though buying one was impossible for this kid, I never lost that desire for a 'real' guitar...a full hollow archtop.

Fast forward to the present, I bet there are kids (and adults) who are fascinated with archtops and will check them out. These days there are so many budget-priced archtops, obtaining one is much easier than before. Time will tell.

[RyanM]

By the way, Long and McQuade in Canada (the biggest music store chain) stopped carrying pretty much any archtops in stock. No Ibanez artcore or epiphones, maybe the occasional Godin.

[Bach5G]

I bought my 175 from a guy who used it for rockabilly. Thankfully, no Bigsby.

I took it to my guitar guy and asked him to de-rockabilly it.

[supersoul]

I think any archtop resurgence will be driven by their other traditional use, which is old timey country Americana Y'all-ternative music. Somewhat recently (past 20years or so) David Rawlings has played one with Gillian Welch, and I'm sure that inspired some people to go out and find old Harmony archtops of their own.

One thing in the archtop's favor is that they look cool as hell. They're real instruments, and they're played as real instruments (meaning they're not plugged into a huge pedal board, where most of the sound is coming from electronics).

Acoustic music is never going away, and it might even come back stronger than it is. People like to hear other people play music. Imperfections become strengths. It's hard to hide mistakes on acoustic instruments.

Or, and just hear me out, in the future there will be a new form of music called Acoustic Death Metal, which will be played on hand carved archtops with spikey and unnecessary horns, painted in various neon/sparkle bursts, and THAT will be the long-awaited archtop resurgence.

[Cunamara]

I think any archtop resurgence will be driven by their other traditional use, which is old timey country Americana Y'all-ternative music. Somewhat recently (past 20years or so) David Rawlings has played one with Gillian Welch, and I'm sure that inspired some people to go out and find old Harmony archtops of their own.

David Rawlings was the first person I thought of in thinking about where a possible archtop resurgence might find a footing- acoustic rather than electric.

One thing in the archtop's favor is that they look cool as hell. They're real instruments, and they're played as real instruments (meaning they're not plugged into a huge pedal board, where most of the sound is coming from electronics).

Acoustic music is never going away, and it might even come back stronger than it is. People like to hear other people play music. Imperfections become strengths. It's hard to hide mistakes on acoustic instruments.

I've always been a little surprised at the non-presence of archtops in bluegrass. Seems like a natural fit with bronze or 80/20 strings. I have been thinking about getting a purely acoustic non-cutaway archtop off and on for decades. I recently watched a bunch of Rob McKillop's videos with his Loar LH-700 and was fascinated by the deep, rich bottom end of that instrument. Also, there is a demo of an early 30s L-5 on the Archtop Project website with a similar quality- distinct from the usual cutting tendencies of many archtops. Sounds like that could fuel an acoustic archtop resurgence.

Or, and just hear me out, in the future there will be a new form of music called Acoustic Death Metal, which will be played on hand carved archtops with spikey and unnecessary horns, painted in various neon/sparkle bursts, and THAT will be the long-awaited archtop resurgence.

[supersoul]

I've always been a little surprised at the non-presence of archtops in bluegrass. Seems like a natural fit with bronze or 80/20 strings.

A lightbulb went off in my head when I realized the carved top archtop was a decendant of the carved top mandolin.

Then people put pickups on, then they started removing the acoustic properties because of feedback, with laminations and centerblocks, then Leo Fender cut the body out of solid wood to really reduce feedback. But the original archtop was designed to be loud.

I have a banjo and I just bought an old mandin (not a carved top) for €10. Both of those are an order of magnitude louder than my acoustic archtops. But I'm using flatwounds, not bronze roundwounds.

Maybelle Carter used an archtop. My knowledge of country music isn't extensive, but there must have been others who used the archtop as well. I'd like to know more.

David Rawlings (and Gillian Welch) are great, they make a lot of music with just two guitars and two voices.

[Cunamara]

My wife plays Irish music on mandolin and previously played five string banjo (as well as clarinet, piano and some guitar). One of her mandolin is a 1906 Gibson A1 which is as loud as a banjo, just astonishingly so. She also has a 1923 Gibson A which is sweeter, but also projects really well. That one is her main instrument. Part of that perceived loudness of mandolin and banjo compared to the guitar is the very bright tone and higher pitch range than the guitar. Think about how much quieter the bass sounds compared to the higher frequency instrument; this is an artifact of human auditory perception rather than simply SPL.

IME roundwounds of any kind are louder than flatwounds on an archtop. On my flattop, I prefer Monel strings to bronze or brass. I've never put bronze or brass strings on my archtop, now that I think about it, because it's always had a pickup. Currently it has John Pearse Jazz .012s, but has had Monel in the past.

[deacon Mark]

Archtops are not going out of fashion at all. The issue with an archtop at least one that is carved is that it will always be the hardest guitar to make. A flat top and the basic electric solidbody are nothing to build compared to an archtop. This means they will always cost more to build and be at the top of food chain in that respect.

The comparison might be that your basic electric piano/keyboard makes way more sense that a real piano. Real pianos have to be kept up and tuned regularly. However you are concert pianist you want real Steinway Grand Piano or similar. Nothing can really do the same thing as the real deal. Given the situation I don't see archtops getting are more or less plentiful. Throw the dog a bone and Gibson will maybe put a few of the classics out from time to time. No flat top for me has ever approached the sound and feeling of an archtop not even close. Live wise no archtop will do a Les Paul.

A working guitarist of various styles needs,
1. Fender or Gibson solidbody
2. A flat top of some sort
3 Probably a semi hollow
4. Carved Archtop Jazz guitar

If you prune it down to the wants vs. the needs. Then the archtop goes out of the plan. Most players of all types though at some point want to sit with a Gibson L5 type guitar. I do at the moment think the market for vintage and fine archtops is down due to the relative economy and what is going. COVID had a wild effect I think on archtop guitar prices of high vintage.

[wintermoon]

Archtops are not going out of fashion at all. The issue with an archtop at least one that is carved is that it will always be the hardest guitar to make. A flat top and the basic electric solidbody are nothing to build compared to an archtop. This means they will always cost more to build and be at the top of food chain in that respect.

The comparison might be that your basic electric piano/keyboard makes way more sense that a real piano. Real pianos have to be kept up and tuned regularly. However you are concert pianist you want real Steinway Grand Piano or similar. Nothing can really do the same thing as the real deal. Given the situation I don't see archtops getting are more or less plentiful. Throw the dog a bone and Gibson will maybe put a few of the classics out from time to time. No flat top for me has ever approached the sound and feeling of an archtop not even close. Live wise no archtop will do a Les Paul.

A working guitarist of various styles needs,
1. Fender or Gibson solidbody
2. A flat top of some sort
3 Probably a semi hollow
4. Carved Archtop Jazz guitar

If you prune it down to the wants vs. the needs. Then the archtop goes out of the plan. Most players of all types though at some point want to sit with a Gibson L5 type guitar. I do at the moment think the market for vintage and fine archtops is down due to the relative economy and what is going. COVID had a wild effect I think on archtop guitar prices of high vintage.

Mark
I don't think the fact that an archtop is harder to build and costs more to make has any bearing on it's value in comparison to other vintage guitars. History has dictated that and I don't see it changing anytime soon. Old Martins and Fender/Gibson solid bodies still rule the vintage market. Even the lowest in the food chain like Melody Makers, Mustangs etc are through the roof.
Like I said earlier, I think the people that favor archtops and whose collection is heavy on them [me included] hope they will retain their value but time will tell.

[deacon Mark]

Mark
I don't think the fact that an archtop is harder to build and costs more to make has any bearing on it's value in comparison to other vintage guitars. History has dictated that and I don't see it changing anytime soon. Old Martins and Fender/Gibson solid bodies still rule the vintage market. Even the lowest in the food chain like Melody Makers, Mustangs etc are through the roof.
Like I said earlier, I think the people that favor archtops and whose collection is heavy on them [me included] hope they will retain their value but time will tell.

What I meant was the general cost of making a new archtop is more expensive, so they are not in demand. Nothing really at all to do with vintage archtops that is another thing entirely. Although I am thinking the market for mid 1940's L5 is not huge.

[Mick-7]

Perhaps location contingent? In my rather limited experience of playing at jazz jam sessions in Japan, archtops seem to be the preference of millennial players.

Yes, archtops appear to be a happenin' thing now in Japan. Archtop guitars are being made there by small manufacturers and Fender and Ibanez are selling models there that they don't sell in the U.S. For example, this one I mentioned in another thread:
AFC71 | Ibanez Wiki

Or, and just hear me out, in the future there will be a new form of music called Acoustic Death Metal, which will be played on hand carved archtops with spikey and unnecessary horns, painted in various neon/sparkle bursts, and THAT will be the long-awaited archtop resurgence.

Make that "Acoustic Death Wood" and the horns will be from animals.

[ThatRhythmMan]

What I meant was the general cost of making a new archtop is more expensive, so they are not in demand. Nothing really at all to do with vintage archtops that is another thing entirely. Although I am thinking the market for mid 1940's L5 is not huge.

The market isn’t huge for 1940s L-5s, but then again the numbers available (and honestly the numbers made) are pretty small too. FWIW, the market for vintage and boutique archtops seemed pretty brisk in 2024 from where I’m siting. 2025 remains to be seen.


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[Spook410]

Resurgence to some past level? Hmm.. no. Will probably survive but from what I'm seeing, most here are old men. When we die out there aren't very many coming up to take our place as consumers of archtop guitars. I don't know what demographic shifts will bring, but in the rich west electronic media has changed things for the foreseeable future. On the other hand in what is currently the third world, particularly Africa, as they can afford a higher standard of living seems possible we'll see music styles rise up that embrace what an archtop can do.

[Doctor Jeff]

The flattop is easier to make and has a well-defined bass and ringing treble, and cuts through the mix and blends well with other acoustic instruments in bluegrass, and by extension country. (Yes I know Mother Maybelle started out on an L5–IIRC, but the golden age of bluegrass was Martin flattops with X-bracing.)

It’s a perfect tool for that application, so why would anyone in that genre change? Especially since you can amplify a flattop very well these days.

By the way, I was at Gruhn’s Guitars last year and actually had the chance to chat with George. He offered me his new model to play—it was actually #8. It sounded great both acoustic and amplified. It has a lot of innovative features, including an upper bout sound hole.