Will archtops ever see a resurgence in popularity?

[Litterick]

As mentioned earlier in the thread - all it takes to increase the popularity of (and thereby demand for) archtop guitars is for popular musicians to use them and be seen with them.

One artist to keep an eye on, who has the potential to impact the popularity of jazzguitar, is Laufey. She is a classically trained, Berklee grad, who plays piano, guitar and cello in her concerts and has been making waves in the US since her TV debut on Jimmy Kimmel live in January 2022.

Every day, people discover Diana Krall, but they don't rush out and buy a Steinway. Only a small proportion of an audience is interested in playing, and only some of them can afford the expensive instruments played by stars. Taylor Swift prompted a resurgence of the acoustic guitar among teenage girls, but those instruments are mostly affordable. Archtops cost big money, and do not offer any great advantage over ordinary solid-body guitars: for most customers, the sound they produce is not worth the extra cost.

Brian Eno said everyone who bought the first Velvet Underground album formed a band, but I doubt many Laufey fans will be buying guitars. She makes undemanding middle-of-the-road music. Her fans probably are content to be entertained.

[Alex W]

While it's unlikely archtops will be back in the mainstream any time soon, it's a bit boomerish to blame it all on Taylor and Styles. If there are no bands any more, that bird has flown.

On the fringes, though, there's a lot going on. Take your pick of influencers: our very own @campusfive; Pasquale Grasso and Josh Meader taking bebop and trio fusion respectively to the next level; up-and-coming talents like 21-year-old Baltimore resident Sam Farthing, 15-year-old Italian tyro Alessandro Seggio, and many more.

Important: look beyond the US and Europe. Don't ignore what I'll grandiloquently call the Asian swing renaissance. Things are really happening in S. Korea and Japan, to name but two locations - check out Hirofumi Asaba on IG and Youtube, also Yuji Kamahigashi (aka @old-fashioned_guitars on the 'Gram). The algo will direct you to countless others.

Finally, the gear. The choice of mid to high end luthier made archtops in 2025 is utterly insane. No way that's happening without a somewhat buoyant market, and just because Gibson has been writing the longest commercial suicide note in history for four decades doesn't mean other makers have had to follow them into the mud.

I'll leave you with a clip of my own little beacon of hope for the future. A year ago, I think to the day, we went to visit the inestimable Frans Elferink at his atelier on the Dutch coast. Thanks to Rob MacKillop's recommendation and video diary here on the forum and great accounts from a few others, I'd taken the plunge and ordered an 18" Excalibur, Frans' take on the D'Angelico Excel. But not for me. For the 14-year-old ripping it up on the right of your screen. The scary thing is he had never even touched an archtop before (we do Gypsy Jazz as a rule) but he'd adjusted to the different angles, scale and string tensions (flatwound 13s) within 10 minutes.

Youth is, after all, perhaps not wasted on the young.

[Marty Grass]

Was jazz ever popular? Swing was. Big bands brought the archtop to life giving pitch to percussion. People were inspired to dance, fast or slow.

The Newport Jazz Festival draws a crowd. But in general you have to define jazz to determine popularity. No definition will approach the draw of rock or blues.

Jazz commonly involves edgy scales and often is less danceable. It's emotive and cerebral. Coltrane and Miles are examples. Dancing has not been that common with McLaughlin's music.

It's a bit sad to see where working jazz guitarists make their bread and butter. Often it is for background music in a restaurant.

There is something else though to consider about the full sized archtop. There is a pleasure playing it. It's more than an armful, it's the whole midsection that feels the resonance. It's a large instrument to have a relationship with. It requires more respect to maintain than a solidbody. And of course there is a beauty in the appearance.

[jim777]

Archtops aren't the most versatile by any stretch, but they are by far the most beautiful, IMHO. I remember as a kid going through the early 60's Gibson catalogs my next door neighbor's big brother had, and just staring at the L5s. Then occasionally seeing George Gobel with his red L5 on TV, those guitars were just beyond beautiful. Those big womanly curves tickled something in your brain you didn't even notice, but Strats and Teles never quite hit the same. They were like Marilyn Monroe guitars.
Now, there are dozens more high end guitar makers and advances in every aspect of guitars, literally every single part, has made it possible to get pretty close to any sound you want out of a solid body, so less versatile guitars have an uphill climb to start. And you almost never see big hollow bodies on TV like you did in the 50's and early 60's. So I don't know if we'll ever see a resurgence of hollowbodies without a very popular artist coming along who champions them. It could happen, might happen, who knows?

Still though, who cares? I used to have a Corvette and it was almost completely worthless for shopping or getting groceries in, but it made me so happy to get in and just go. Archtops are the same, just seeing them in my music room puts a smile on my face every day. Just my $0.02

[2bornot2bop]

Who cares what is popular with someone else?

Enjoy your Archtop’s.

What anyone else wants or does is their business.

[Room135]

Here a new Industrial signature model PM3C !

Slow train coming

[Litterick]

Ibanez is in the business of making money too. I have one of their Made in Japan semi-hollows - it's a world-class instrument, period, with no excuses made. For $2-3k. I assume their MIJ archtops are on the same level. All it shows is Ibanez are better industrialists than Gibson.

Japanese living standards have not improved in the last thirty years. When you buy a house in Japan, according to Rupert Wingfield-Hayes, "As soon as you move in, your new home is worth less than what you paid for it and after you've finished paying off your mortgage in 40 years, it is worth almost nothing." It is no wonder Japan's guitars are cheap. Japan is trapped in the nineties.

[m_d]

Japanese living standards have not improved in the last thirty years. When you buy a house in Japan, according to Rupert Wingfield-Hayes, "As soon as you move in, your new home is worth less than what you paid for it and after you've finished paying off your mortgage in 40 years, it is worth almost nothing." It is no wonder Japan's guitars are cheap. Japan is trapped in the nineties.

I wouldn't know where to begin with that line of argument - which is quite common and largely, a load of BS. The West doesn't like to admit it's been outclassed - and even, as a last resort will call the Japanese racist (as the ever classy Joe Biden recently did). A lot of jealousy is at play IMO. Most criticisms I read of Japan are stupid, by people who probably haven't even travelled there, and I see no explanation other than jealously. Living standards are sky high. Who cares if Japanese wages are - supposedly - comparable to French wages, for instance, as I've heard, when you can still find rent in Tokyo for 1/3 or less compared than Paris price - Tokyo being like 10X more desirable as a place to live than current-day, unbearable Paris ; restaurant meals of incredible quality for $15 - a kind of quality that simply isn't available for less than $100-150 here is Switzerland; and so many other examples. The idea of Japan being trapped in the 90ies, with first-rate engineering pervading every aspect of life, almost like an art form, is absolutely laughable - if so, many many places, even among supposedly Western 1st world nations are trapped in the 70ies.

[tomv713]

I wouldn't know where to begin with that line of argument - which is quite common and largely, a load of BS. The West doesn't like to admit it's been outclassed - and even, as a last resort will call the Japanese racist (as the ever classy Joe Biden recently did). A lot of jealousy is at play IMO. Most criticisms I read of Japan are stupid, by people who probably haven't even travelled there, and I see no explanation other than jealously. Living standards are sky high. Who cares if Japanese wages are - supposedly - comparable to French wages, for instance, as I've heard, when you can still find rent in Tokyo for 1/3 or less compared than Paris price - Tokyo being like 10X more desirable as a place to live than current-day, unbearable Paris ; restaurant meals of incredible quality for $15 - a kind of quality that simply isn't available for less than $100-150 here is Switzerland; and so many other examples. The idea of Japan being trapped in the 90ies, with first-rate engineering pervading every aspect of life, almost like an art form, is absolutely laughable - if so, many many places, even among supposedly Western 1st world nations are trapped in the 70ies.

I think is point is that traditional construction practices in Japan really estate are to make homes that are not built to last (by design). Houses are generally knocked down after 30 years or so because they are made with cheap materials.


That being said, I’ve gotten into woodworking over the last year and can definitely say the various methods of Japanese woodworking are world class. There is a lot of cultural pride there and you can’t really compare housing construction to guitar construction. I’m probably picking a Westville over any Gibson tbh.

[Litterick]

I wouldn't know where to begin with that line of argument - which is quite common and largely, a load of BS. The West doesn't like to admit it's been outclassed - and even, as a last resort will call the Japanese racist (as the ever classy Joe Biden recently did). A lot of jealousy is at play IMO. Most criticisms I read of Japan are stupid, by people who probably haven't even travelled there, and I see no explanation other than jealously. Living standards are sky high. Who cares if Japanese wages are - supposedly - comparable to French wages, for instance, as I've heard, when you can still find rent in Tokyo for 1/3 or less compared than Paris price - Tokyo being like 10X more desirable as a place to live than current-day, unbearable Paris ; restaurant meals of incredible quality for $15 - a kind of quality that simply isn't available for less than $100-150 here is Switzerland; and so many other examples. The idea of Japan being trapped in the 90ies, with first-rate engineering pervading every aspect of life, almost like an art form, is absolutely laughable - if so, many many places, even among supposedly Western 1st world nations are trapped in the 70ies.

Straits Times, 22nd December, 2024:

Personal debt is overwhelming an increasing number of Japanese as higher interest rates and the rising cost of living bite.

Consumer loans are rising at the highest rate in 16 years. Household borrowing exceeded incomes for the first time in 2023. And government officials are worried that many people accustomed to rock-bottom rates will struggle with their mounting loans.

While Japan is by no means alone in confronting a debt problem, its salaries are the lowest of the Group of Seven (G-7) countries, and its central bank is raising borrowing costs while its peers are cutting them.

BNN Bloomberg, 8th January, 2025:

Japanese workers’ base salaries grew the most in 32 years, offering potential support for the central bank to raise rates this month if other data back up the thesis that a positive economic cycle is strengthening.

Base salaries increased by 2.7% in November from a year ago to drive up nominal wages by 3%, the labor ministry reported Thursday. Economists had expected nominal pay to rise 2.7%. A more stable measure of wage trends watched by the central bank that avoids sampling problems and excludes bonuses and overtime showed wages for full-time workers gained 2.8%, remaining at or above 2% for 15 months.

The yen stregnthened slightly against the dollar following the report, gaining up to 158.10.

In a more discouraging sign, real cash earnings dropped 0.3% from a year earlier, extending the streak of declines to four months. Stagnation in real wages was partly driven by inflation outpacing pay growth, as price gains strengthened in November after the government halted subsidies for utility bills, pushing up energy costs.

The Japan News, 10th January, 2025:

The Japanese economy is on a path of gradual recovery, but households are struggling with their budgets due to the rising prices of food and other daily necessities. In order to make people’s lives more affluent, it is necessary to increase Japan’s productivity, boost its gross domestic product and grow the economic pie itself for the distribution of wealth.

However, GDP growth has been slow over the past 30 years or so. In dollar terms, Japan has fallen from second to fourth place in the world, having been overtaken by China and Germany. Due to prolonged stagnation, Japan’s share of global GDP has fallen from about 18% in 1995 to about 4%.

[floatingpickup]

Maybe it’s time for the moderator to end this discussion, since it has gone way off topic.
Keith

[Litterick]

Maybe it’s time for the moderator to end this discussion, since it has gone way off topic.
Keith

This discussion is doing no harm.

[m_d]

Straits Times, 22nd December, 2024:

Personal debt is overwhelming an increasing number of Japanese as higher interest rates and the rising cost of living bite.

Consumer loans are rising at the highest rate in 16 years. Household borrowing exceeded incomes for the first time in 2023. And government officials are worried that many people accustomed to rock-bottom rates will struggle with their mounting loans.

While Japan is by no means alone in confronting a debt problem, its salaries are the lowest of the Group of Seven (G-7) countries, and its central bank is raising borrowing costs while its peers are cutting them.

BNN Bloomberg, 8th January, 2025:

Japanese workers’ base salaries grew the most in 32 years, offering potential support for the central bank to raise rates this month if other data back up the thesis that a positive economic cycle is strengthening.

Base salaries increased by 2.7% in November from a year ago to drive up nominal wages by 3%, the labor ministry reported Thursday. Economists had expected nominal pay to rise 2.7%. A more stable measure of wage trends watched by the central bank that avoids sampling problems and excludes bonuses and overtime showed wages for full-time workers gained 2.8%, remaining at or above 2% for 15 months.

The yen stregnthened slightly against the dollar following the report, gaining up to 158.10.

In a more discouraging sign, real cash earnings dropped 0.3% from a year earlier, extending the streak of declines to four months. Stagnation in real wages was partly driven by inflation outpacing pay growth, as price gains strengthened in November after the government halted subsidies for utility bills, pushing up energy costs.

The Japan News, 10th January, 2025:

The Japanese economy is on a path of gradual recovery, but households are struggling with their budgets due to the rising prices of food and other daily necessities. In order to make people’s lives more affluent, it is necessary to increase Japan’s productivity, boost its gross domestic product and grow the economic pie itself for the distribution of wealth.

However, GDP growth has been slow over the past 30 years or so. In dollar terms, Japan has fallen from second to fourth place in the world, having been overtaken by China and Germany. Due to prolonged stagnation, Japan’s share of global GDP has fallen from about 18% in 1995 to about 4%.

So... fourth place in the world... teeerrible place to be in, right? Quality of life is still way above that of Germany. Aside from stats and figures, some people actually travel there. We have. Three different guides we hired during our trip told us, there is no poverty here and as a matter of fact, I did not see a single homeless person. Except a couple of men, who obviously had heavy mental issues. Do you have any idea how huge Tokyo and Osaka are? And easily the most complex cities I've ever seen. Yet, not a single homeless person in sight. And no crime, no drugs, anywhere to be seen. The atmosphere is extraordinarily safe, civilized and pleasant. But, the dumb Western press will not mention that - it would mean admitting failure. Would love to read a candid account by the Japanese press or others of the absolute horror some parts of the civilized West have become.

[Alex W]

Guys, ZeroHedge is the tab to the left of the one you're currently using.

But since we've seen fit to go down that rabbit hole, here's some more evidence of Japan's burgeoning socioeconomic malaise. Enjoy.

[Litterick]

So... fourth place in the world... teeerrible place to be in, right? Quality of life is still way above that of Germany. Aside from stats and figures, some people actually travel there. We have. Three different guides we hired during our trip told us, there is no poverty here and as a matter of fact, I did not see a single homeless person. Except a couple of men, who obviously had heavy mental issues. Do you have any idea how huge Tokyo and Osaka are? And easily the most complex cities I've ever seen. Yet, not a single homeless person in sight. And no crime, no drugs, anywhere to be seen. The atmosphere is extraordinarily safe, civilized and pleasant. But, the dumb Western press will not mention that - it would mean admitting failure. Would love to read a candid account by the Japanese press or others of the absolute horror some parts of the civilized West have become.

Borgen Project

Japan has a reputation for having one of the highest national well-being rates because of its prestigious education, successful healthcare systems and attractive culture. This perception is backed up by Japan holding 14th position in the global quality of life ranking and 16th in Gross domestic product (GDP). Consequently, the country stands out as a highly favored travel destination, attracting more than 23 million tourists in 2023. These visitors often buy into the idea of the lack of poverty in Japan.

However, according to the 2022 Basic Survey on National Living published by the Ministry of Health, Labor and Welfare, Japan’s poverty rate was 15.4%, the highest among the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) members then.

OECD

Income inequality and relative poverty among the working-age population in Japan have risen to levels above the OECD average. This trend is partially explained by labour market dualism, with an increasing proportion of non-regular workers who are paid significantly less than regular workers, as well as by other factors, including the ageing of the workforce. Social spending as a share of GDP has been expanding in the context of population ageing, although it remains below the OECD average and the proportion received by low-income households is small. Consequently, the impact of social spending on inequality and poverty is weak compared to other OECD countries and inadequate to offset the deterioration in market income. The scope for increasing social spending is constrained by the fiscal situation. Instead, reversing the upward trend in inequality and poverty requires reforms to reduce labour market dualism and better target social spending on low-income households, particularly single parents. This Working Paper relates to the 2006 OECD Economic Survey of Japan (www.oecd.org/eco/surveys/japan).

[Jazzman-tone]

Not only are the high end arch tops as you say "cost prohibited", they are not worth the money.

I have seen used arch tops on the web site Reverb priced at $30,000 and still are for sale 4 years later with reduced prices cut more than 50%.They still don't sell at half the original price even in mint condition.

Examples: Benedetto Manhattan made by Bob in brand new condition reduced from $40,000 to about $14,000. It was for sale for years and I don't know if it was ever sold.

There was a Tom Bills Natura Elite 2, his most expensive arch top that he charges over $30,000 for and the seller was willing to accept $11,500.

[RJVB]

This discussion is doing no harm.

Other than implying that there's no point in continuing discussing the original question ...


... which admittedly lacked a and what can we do the help follow-up question.

[frabarmus]

Let's face it, there probabily won't be a resurgence in popularity for the archtop but maybe nor will there be a (complete) decline of it, thanks to Ibanez, Eastman & similar brands ...and luthiers who challenge "big name (expensive) brands". But, just in case I'm wrong, I'm holding on tight to my 3 archtops, and should anything happen to them I'd rush to get an Ibanez AF2000 and an Epiphone JP model (or perhaps a Sheraton) as a backup.

[gitman]

There are more luthiers building archtop guitars today than ever before, nobody can deny this. They would be building solid body pieces if no one asked for the other kind…. We see not many archtops on TV etc.but if people would go to clubs more often they’d know better.

[Jimmy Mack]

Let's face it, there probabily won't be a resurgence in popularity for the archtop but maybe nor will there be a (complete) decline of it, thanks to Ibanez, Eastman & similar brands ...and luthiers who challenge "big name (expensive) brands".

Add to this premise, that there are still a LOT of Gibson arch tops out there. Some of them are for sale, or will be.........someday

[RyanM]

I think it’s kind of like a Fender Rhodes. Most keyboard players are fine with rhodes sound on a modern digital stage piano.

But lots of players want the vibe of the real thing. For them, there’s plenty of 70’s models around, still in use and maintained, and sell for a few thousand. But they don’t really need to be making new ones. (Although there are a few boutique companies still making them including a new Rhodes company).

[entresz]

I like playing acoustic archtops the most, but it doesn't concern me what other people use. With that said I also enjoy playing solid body instruments too.

My initial interest in archtop instruments was certainly influenced by players I admire, but my ongoing interest is purely based on the sounds I want to hear and the music I play.

[RJVB]

I think it’s kind of like a Fender Rhodes. Most keyboard players are fine with rhodes sound on a modern digital stage piano.

Are you saying that most (jazz) e-guitar players are fine with the sound of any other electric guitar? Hear, hear!

For me a resurgence of the instrument can only be driven by its acoustic qualities, and I'm frankly surprised that builders continue to accept to spend enormous amounts of time and effort in creating exquisite, hand-carved instruments which will then only really be heard through a by-definition lofi PU and processing chain that will completely denature their voices.

In fact, one of the ideas behind the archtop project discussed in a parallel thread was to understand what makes a great acoustic archtop and what could be done to improve/evolve that, with the goal of creating more universally versatile instruments (like Gibson & Loar's original intention for the L5). At least that's what I got from discussing his work with Tom Nania.

[arnie65]

Referring to the question, anything is possible, and anything can happen. You can have someone make a movie about the life of Wes Montgomery, and that can trigger a resurgence. When George Benson made the crossover in the mid 70's, Ibanez and Gibson sold a ton of archtops, and for some time orders were backed up. So really anything can trigger a resurgence, in my opinion, if the prices of archtops keep rising, it will be hard. I remember when you could get a nice quality archtop like a Borys 120 for $3,500; now they're over $6,000. Nothing against Roger, it's just the way it goes with the economy, and this is just one example out of so many other Luthiers. Some of them have triplicated their prices over the last 10 years, and I get it, it's an open free-market and you can charge whatever price you want for your product. However they're a handful of Luthiers like Stephen Holst and others, that are still making phenomenal archtops at a reasonable price, and we need to patronize them...




Cheers,
Arnie..

[Ob Com]

I do think its partially cost based that has caused any decline, particularly in Gibsons.

Here in the UK, 10-12 years ago, you could buy a new Gibson memphis 59 ES 175 reissue for £2,500, a new Tal Farlow Crimson from nashville for £2,350.

The lovely Es-295 limited run memphis did in 2013 was just under £3,000 if I remember rightly.

i don’t know about L5’s, but Guitar Village usually had one or two new Super 400 CES in stock. They were either £6,000 or £8,000 - i’m not sure but I think it was £6,000.

All the above were not cheap but they were not bats crazy either.

If only we had known then what a Golden period it was- memphis producing interesting laminates, really good quality, trying to make them like they did back in the day, lighter and more resonant, resurrecting old models that hadn't been made for years and Nashville turning out the great carved tops (and Tal’s) -all not cheap, but not crazy money like you would have to pay now to get the same stuff second hand.

And then Gibson stopped making archtops and the vintage market and s/h market wen’t crazy.

These guitars are just unaffordable now for most punters.

Even if Gibson ever does make jazz boxes again, based on the extraordinary prices they charge for the custom shop solid body guitars, they will be so expensive that the second hand market will stay high.

So, in terms of Gibson at least, for younger players, its just over and gone.

Very sad.