Constraint Led Learning

[mr. beaumont]

Actually physiologically, third and fourth finger together is stronger than the other two.

Spoken like a bass player

[pamosmusic]

maybe you’d do better with Allan than me then haha

Actually physiologically, third and fourth finger together is stronger than the other two.

Yep. For right hand classical, you’re supposed to keep the pinkie and ring moving as one unit. I had a buddy who bound them together with athletic tape

[pamosmusic]

Peter... I don't always use three fingers... because I play a jazz box with slightly higher action most of the time. That naturally creates a sound and generally makes different fingerings have a more defined sound and feel.

Now that you say that, that seems like kind of an obvious point, but I don’t think I ever thought of that.

Lots of that jazz technique develops from imitating the sound and feel of guys playing big jazz boxes, when amplification wasn’t great and the action had to be high for the guitar to speak. That three finger technique makes a lot of sense in that context as a practical consideration. Then all the musical benefits Christian mentions explains why it sort of stuck.

I use my pinkie all the time and sometimes feel like I even favor it. But I play a tele with ridiculously low action.

As an aside … I used to work for a high end guitar builder and would have the guy who did most of the final setup work setup my guitars. He agreed to set it up how I wanted, only on the condition that if the boss ever played it, I wouldn’t tell him who set it up. Because it was so low he would’ve got hell for it being objectively wrong.

[Christian Miller]

I definitely go more for three fingers when playing my heavier string jazz box. My one has a teeny tiny silly little neck which tends to encourage this.

[Christian Miller]

Spoken like a bass player

indeed..

[Christian Miller]

Now that you say that, that seems like kind of an obvious point, but I don’t think I ever thought of that.

Lots of that jazz technique develops from imitating the sound and feel of guys playing big jazz boxes, when amplification wasn’t great and the action had to be high for the guitar to speak. That three finger technique makes a lot of sense in that context as a practical consideration. Then all the musical benefits Christian mentions explains why it sort of stuck.

I use my pinkie all the time and sometimes feel like I even favor it. But I play a tele with ridiculously low action.

As an aside … I used to work for a high end guitar builder and would have the guy who did most of the final setup work setup my guitars. He agreed to set it up how I wanted, only on the condition that if the boss ever played it, I wouldn’t tell him who set it up. Because it was so low he would’ve got hell for it being objectively wrong.

Except of course most of the great rock guitar players play the same way too. But that crossover via blues guitar is one thing that I think is worth bearing in mind as well.

i would say to the thread in general - if you haven’t tried playing this way, give a go. It’s good fun if nothing else.

[pauln]

I'm yoinking that if you don't mind? This is the way I approach scales these days.

yoink
verb [ T ] slang
US /j???k/ UK /j???k/
Add to word list
1) to take something quickly, usually without permission
2) to rotate a fingering diagram 90 degrees clockwise to align it with
the conventional presentation of fingering for the cowboy chords
example
The dog just yoinked a sausage from under my nose!
He yoinked my scale fingerings and used them himself.
Synonym
snatch

[pamosmusic]

Except of course most of the great rock guitar players play the same way too. But that crossover via blues guitar is one thing that I think is worth bearing in mind as well.

i would say to the thread in general - if you haven’t tried playing this way, give a go. It’s good fun if nothing else.

I’ve worked on what, in hindsight, feels like a weird amount the Advancing Guitarist material but I’ve never done the finger limitations. So maybe I should …

[mr. beaumont]

Except of course most of the great rock guitar players play the same way too. But that crossover via blues guitar is one thing that I think is worth bearing in mind as well.

i would say to the thread in general - if you haven’t tried playing this way, give a go. It’s good fun if nothing else.

I relate it all back to Charlie Christian.

Charlie played this way (and lots of downstrokes too) and the players who copied him generally play this way too.

And if you've spent some time copying CC, you're probably someone I enjoy listening to more than somebody who hasn't.

[PMB]

Erm … me too?

I'll send on a few pages, Peter. Like Christian, I'm mostly a 3-finger player and decided to used a more 'standard' fingering in those diagrams. Incorporating both plus experimenting with rolling fingers across consecutive strings at the same fret and using separate digits in those situations seems to be the best way way to prepare us for actual musical making.

[rpjazzguitar]

I use all 4, but I like players who use mostly 3 (and Django) and I don't think it's a coincidence.

I think with 4 fingers there may be a tendency to use, on average, shorter intervals. Not that you have to, and not that really great players would necessarily go with these tendencies. Here's the notion.

Say you're in 5th position on the D string and you've just played a G and an A (1st and third fingers, respectively) in the key of Bb.

The 4 finger player may be a little more likely to play the Bb a half step up (pinkie) than the 3 finger player.

Or, maybe the 3 finger player slides into the Bb. Now he's in the 6th position and he's maybe more likely to play a D than the 4 finger player, who might be more likely to play a C.

Of course there are other ways this could go. But it seems to me that playing a straight, potentially boring, Bb scale falls more readily under the 4 finger hand than under the 3.

[Christian Miller]

I'll send on a few pages, Peter. Like Christian, I'm mostly a 3-finger player and decided to used a more 'standard' fingering in those diagrams. Incorporating both plus experimenting with rolling fingers across consecutive strings at the same fret and using separate digits in those situations seems to be the best way way to prepare us for actual musical making.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not myself a three fingered player really. More so on the Es175. I wish I was cool enough to be haha.

[mr. beaumont]

But also keep in mind the reason I'm a 3 finger player has nothing to do with influences or coolness. I was just a lazy shit in my teens and developed a habit I have no real patience to work out of.

[Christian Miller]

Here’s an old shonky video I did back in the uncontrolled lockdown beard era I did on the subject. I’m thinking I might redo it with better camera angles etc.

[PMB]

But also keep in mind the reason I'm a 3 finger player has nothing to do with influences or coolness. I was just a lazy shit in my teens and developed a habit I have no real patience to work out of.

I'm self-taught and started very young so I didn't even know about things like CAGED, positions and using the pinky until years after picking up the instrument. I played most of my lines up one string out of desperation to make a noise not because I was inspired by Mick Goodrick!

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

Here’s an old shonky video I did back in the uncontrolled lockdown beard era I did on the subject. I’m thinking I might redo it with better camera angles etc.

Redo the beard? If you'd shave the chin you'd look like Lemmy.

[Christian Miller]

Redo the beard? If you'd shave the chin you'd look like Lemmy.

I was going more for Tom Hanks in castaway



'twas a different time. Now I have to go out of the house and see actual people in the world.

[Christian Miller]

I'm self-taught and started very young so I didn't even know about things like CAGED, positions and using the pinky until years after picking up the instrument. I played most of my lines up one string out of desperation to make a noise not because I was inspired by Mick Goodrick!

--0--3---5----0---3---6---5----0---3---5----3---0

Got a class singing that yesterday while the other half sang

3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3

The singing was pretty good!

Unfortunately I overestimated their ability to actually play it. Need to dial back my ambition on this one....

BTW anyone working in classroom guitar teaching? Get a wireless rig! It's hilarious.

Sorry, what was this thread about again?

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

I was going more for Tom Hanks in castaway



'twas a different time. Now I have to go out of the house and see actual people in the world.

Is Tom Hanks a filthy rocker?

But seriusly:

I came across your video recently while looking for a video I had seen a long time ago where someone recommended to practice playing with three fingers as well to get an authentic jazz sound. I thought it was by Rodney Jones but I did not find it and it is also possible that I remembered your video. (No, I would not confuse you with Rodney Jones -- with or without your beard.)

Dave Cliff is blowing me away with what he is doing with three fingers.

[PMB]

--0--3---5----0---3---6---5----0---3---5----3---0

Got a class singing that yesterday while the other half sang

3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3

The singing was pretty good!

Unfortunately I overestimated their ability to actually play it. Need to dial back my ambition on this one....

BTW anyone working in classroom guitar teaching? Get a wireless rig! It's hilarious.

Sorry, what was this thread about again?

A good riff for teaching rhythmic subdivisions as well - mostly crotchets/quarter notes in the guitar, quavers/8th notes in the bass, semiquavers/16th notes in the drums.

I have a school guitar ensemble that performed a medley of Pink Floyd's Time and Bowie's Space Oddity recently for a "Back to the Future" themed concert. The tempos are nearly identical so we went straight from the F major chord at the end of Time into the Fmaj7 intro for Space Oddity. Worked a treat!

Was everyone going wireless? If so, that's quite a budget put aside for electric guitars.

[Christian Miller]

A good riff for teaching rhythmic subdivisions as well - mostly crotchets/quarter notes in the guitar, quavers/8th notes in the bass, semiquavers/16th notes in the drums.

Yeah! That side of it worked well

I have a school guitar ensemble that performed a medley of Pink Floyd's Time and Bowie's Space Oddity recently for a "Back to the Future' themed concert. The tempos are nearly identical so we went straight from the F major chord at the end of Time into the Fmaj7 intro for Space Oddity. Worked a treat!

Nice

Unless there's a specific theme, it's usually Taylor Swift Shake it Off or We Don't Talk About Bruno for my lot. (The latter is great for teaching about Clave and Afro-Cuban rhythms, the former gives you the G major pentatonic.)

Weirdly they like Maria Maria by Santana though, and that song is over 20 years old (!). I think it's TikTok.

Last term I did a tune from Super Mario Oddessy (60s style surf instrumental, was fun, Koji Kondo is great, and there's some great guitars on the Nintendo stuff, loads of hip fusion charts on Mario Karts 8). I'd love to do more video game stuff.

Should branch out into the "classical music" though haha (Floyd is probably like Monteverdi to them)

Was everyone going wireless? If so, that's quite a budget put aside for electric guitars.

Nah they were on acoustic. I got one of those cheap dongle pairs for like £50, works like a charm. The well behaved ones get to have a go on the tele next week. I figure it needs a bit more relicing.

[Christian Miller]

Is Tom Hanks a filthy rocker?

I would say he needs a bath.

There was a rumour he was a big death metal fan doing the rounds, but it's entirely possible someone mixed him up with Jim Carrey.

[Krinky]

So, the thread basically asked, has anyone used Constraint Learning to learn how to play both Vertically and Horizontally without using scale Patterns.

A Constraint-Led purist would probably argue that the scales (or "note groups") would be "discovered" through experimentation, rather than needing to be "taught".

[pamosmusic]

A Constraint-Led purist would probably argue that the scales (or "note groups") would be "discovered" through experimentation, rather than needing to be "taught".

Yeah. That’s why I doubt the utility of being a purist about much of anything.

[Reg]

A Constraint-Led purist would probably argue that the scales (or "note groups") would be "discovered" through experimentation, rather than needing to be "taught".

Thanks, so at some point one needs to become aware of the context , in this case, what the organization of the notes is... and then what that organization implies etc... Basically because Jazz is generally about performing with other musician, (not always obviously), but generally. Which leads me to the same conclusion... There are just to many wrong roads and not near enough time.