The benefit of "shedding" written etudes, exercises, etc.

[AllanAllen]

Joe Cohn is always on the edge of an idea---you can see and hear his brain.

Barney Kessel too. I used to not like his playing because I felt like I could hear the hesitation. I love it now.

[joelf]

Barney Kessel too. I used to not like his playing because I felt like I could hear the hesitation. I love it now.

Wish I did. Not a huge fan. But he sure spoke his piece...

[AllanAllen]

Wish I did. Not a huge fan. But he sure spoke his piece...

Not even this?

[pamosmusic]

Not even this?

Not a big Barney fan either but he’s a great accompanist. Honestly I don’t really love listening to Joe Pass either, but his stuff with Ella is some of the best guitar playing of all the guitar playing.

[joelf]

Not even this?

No, I liked that, and used to own it. Look, I know what he could do, and rather liked his earlier work especially. He was a pro and walked with giants. Fit into many situations beautifully. Just not my personal top favorite...

[mr. beaumont]

It's not a train wreck if your chops are up to it-)

I'm only speaking of myself in particular. Its not a chops issue (though I have plenty of those too) as much as it is a changing the way of thinking issue.

[joelf]

I'm only speaking of myself in particular. Its not a chops issue (though I have plenty of those too) as much as it is a changing the way of thinking issue.

It's a chops thing for me, and I'm about to study with a guy to nip this shnizzle in the bud once and for all.

Self-criticism is cool, and can lead to growth (until it morphs into self-absorption, obsession, neurosis---or all 3). We ought to look in the mirror once in a while and check the image for what's happening and what ain't...

[joelf]

Mathematical/logical lines should be played faster and faster until they start sounding good. More creative, surprising and emotive lines should be saved for slower tempos.

Mathematical/logical lines contain less information for the listener to process. So you need to increase the bandwidth to match the (information content)/(second) rate of better constructed lines, Lol.

Chris Anderson may have played slower than anyone in history. His thing was solo ballads, often out of tempo. And he improvised with orchestration, not just single lines, being a pianist.

In a radio interview he said about this: 'I like to pause and have a look and listen to what I just played'. Would be nice if more players had that kind of courage and self-reflection, especially in front of audiences. It's therapeutic to slow everyone's nervous brains down. (It's trickier to do this with a band, unless you're the leader or leading the tune. You'll get pushback maybe, but if you hear it that strongly do it. But first make sure it's cool and you're not stepping on toes).

Maybe a trial run to gauge reactions?

[joelf]

Surely there would be a natural threshold were they to learn Lagrima

And you did it again! You're killin' me, bro.

Lagrima? Isn't that a combination pasta and veggie dish? Linguini/legume.

Or the French pronunciation of dirt?

[joelf]

Everybody has their own learning style, but in my experience learning solos (or bits of solos) off the record by ear and internalizing them, modifying them and playing off them is a great way to improve one's improvisational skills and command of the jazz vocabulary.

Or playing along with the records. That way it's almost like you're in the band. If they're great it can be a very beneficial ass-whuppin'. It's communing with the spirits to me, (and I do it myself when I feel I need a challenge to ratchet up some). Then afterwards you will have absorbed both vocab and interplay, and noted what you need to work on.

Charlie Parker did this. There are recordings of him playing along with Benny Goodman and others...

[Christian Miller]

Not a big Barney fan either but he’s a great accompanist. Honestly I don’t really love listening to Joe Pass either, but his stuff with Ella is some of the best guitar playing of all the guitar playing.

Barney may be my favourite comper actually. Do you know this album?

[Christian Miller]

And you did it again! You're killin' me, bro.

Lagrima? Isn't that a combination pasta and veggie dish? Linguini/legume.

Or the French pronunciation of dirt?

Definitely the latter!

Not when Rob plays it mind

[Tal_175]

On a more serious tip (Christian, et. al.):

Re composing/improvising: Lee Konitz, in a thought-provoking and recommended by me series of interviews with Andy Hamilton (Conversations on the Improviser's Art) called Charlie Parker a 'composer'. He felt that Parker had very specific phrases that he would slot in whole or rearranged in certain spots, say in a blues or standard---or whatever. Konitz was making the respectful observation about a master: Parker had a collection of motifs that he would use, sometimes starting on a different beat or in the inside of a phrase. (Konitz felt that he, Konitz, was more 'intuitive', building a solo from the ground up, and often risky business).

To connect this to the present discussion, this doesn't exactly equate to using etudes in the mix, but there are definitely accomplished improvisers who have some forethought of what they will play when on the spot. And it's no crime---that's why there's practice time apart from gig time.

Sonny Rollins said that he would practice very specific things at home, then try to make his mind blank at the performance. He felt that if he pre-thought a quote or some lick that would fit a chord sequence into a solo it would fall flat. (He tried it). Does this make him a 'purer' improviser than Parker, or Parker a 'prepared player', per Konitz?

I wonder. Geniuses' minds work in all kinds of ways, even in a solitary performance. And, in total contrast to Konitz, Miles Davis in his autobiog wrote that Parker (paraphrasing) was 'outrageous in the way he juxtaposed unrelated phrases (and made them hang together---observation mine), where the average person would try to develop something more logically'.

Youse decide. Me, I come down on the side of taking chances in the moment and especially listening loud to the previous soloist's last phrase to get to go into a different direction than what you worked out at home---or even than what you were about to play before you heard that last phrase.

But do do the etudes and warm-ups. I do. It's like the old joke about the Jewish grandmother, who when asked if chicken soup could really help someone get better, responded 'Couldn't hoit'...

That's interesting. I think, though, there is difference between what Parker was doing and what Sonny Rollins was describing as inserting a pre-thoughtout lick over a certain chord (and not having much success with it). Parker had his small phrases but I don't think planed where to use them in advance. He could go on and on endlessly playing tasty lines over the same changes. It's possible that the improvisation process at the neurological level isn't that different between players. The differences is mostly is how they think about the process and make sense of it. That's just one thought.

[AllanAllen]

No, I liked that, and used to own it. Look, I know what he could do, and rather liked his earlier work especially. He was a pro and walked with giants. Fit into many situations beautifully. Just not my personal top favorite...

I brought up that cut because when I heard it it just blew me away and I was really surprised it was Barney Kessel.

[AllanAllen]

.
Charlie Parker did this. There are recordings of him playing along with Benny Goodman and others...

yeah I posted them in the first comment on this thread. It sounds like he’s playing in the band, not to a recording in the room it’s crazy.

[Liarspoker]

Definitely the latter!

Hey, I take offense!

Lagrima is one of my solo gig staples. I had a whole intro and middle section worked out when I played it last year.

When busking it's actually one of the money tunes

As you were.......

[neonshaker]

Well...how many jazz tunes can you play?

Is, in my opinion, the correct question. I learn arrangements of chord melodies of the standards. Why?

1) I fear the moment I'm in casual conversation with someone and guitar playing comes up and they say "play us something then". I'm fairly certain they'll be less than impressed with a few licks, ii-V-Is in multiple keys or whatever.
2) I play guitar to make music and there is something greatly fulfilling about playing a song, melody and harmony from start to end.
3) I figure one day I'll understand what the arranger is doing one day in the future when I'm ready to understand it.

[ccroft]

Hot thread! I love what Joel's been saying about interplay. That's what jazz is to me. I also dig his advice to play with the records. Very good for the ear.

Reading some of the OP's posts I was reminded of the Branford Marsalis Quote that's in a member's sig:

"Everybody talks about finding your voice. Do your homework and your voice will find you."

So where does the voice come from? I think it's in our 'personality'. We all have our favourite colours for EG. We have proclivities and tendencies. So if you love the way Martino plays, then do a deep dive on that. You'll be strengthening your personality. At some point you might hear another guy that captures your imagination and go down a different avenue. It's all refining your tastes, abilities and your voice. It's a life-long kind of thing.

I also think you don't just do one thing in practice. Etudes for a while and some time spent doing what the OP's teacher said: try to invent something of your own. They're not mutually exclusive. The goal is to get to playing with other people. You have to be able to play well enough for them to want to play with you.

Here follows some old guy nostalgia: My first gigs were with a Buck Owens cover band called Ed Bouché & the Boucheroos. Get it? In 1970 a guitar buddy was gigging with them and was going away to college. He said I should take the gig. I said I don't know anything about country music and kinda hate it. He said "The money's good and the experience will be good. Just watch The Johnny Cash show and play along for a few weeks. You'll get it." That's what I did. At 16 I was having some fun and making some dough with my guitar. Beat the hell out of washing dishes.

My point: I learned to play some country. 2 years later I was gigging jazz. I don't think those licks I learned for the Boucheroos got much use or had much influence. The experience on stage certainly helped. And 50 years later if I wanted to play with some country guys I could bring some back and fit right in, but I don't think you'd hear it in my music today. No harm no foul.

For much of the 70's I was attracted to Martino, Coryell, DiMeola, and McLaughlin. I learned a lot. I got some chops. I don't think I sound anything like that now.

Follow your heart.

[AllanAllen]

Hot thread! I love what Joel's been saying about interplay. That's what jazz is to me. I also dig his advice to play with the records. Very good for the ear.

Reading some of the OP's posts I was reminded of the Branford Marsalis Quote that's in a member's sig:

"Everybody talks about finding your voice. Do your homework and your voice will find you."

So where does the voice come from? I think it's in our 'personality'. We all have our favourite colours for EG. We have proclivities and tendencies. So if you love the way Martino plays, then do a deep dive on that. You'll be strengthening your personality. At some point you might hear another guy that captures your imagination and go down a different avenue. It's all refining your tastes, abilities and your voice. It's a life-long kind of thing.

I also think you don't just do one thing in practice. Etudes for a while and some time spent doing what the OP's teacher said: try to invent something of your own. They're not mutually exclusive. The goal is to get to playing with other people. You have to be able to play well enough for them to want to play with you.

Here follows some old guy nostalgia: My first gigs were with a Buck Owens cover band called Ed Bouché & the Boucheroos. Get it? In 1970 a guitar buddy was gigging with them and was going away to college. He said I should take the gig. I said I don't know anything about country music and kinda hate it. He said "The money's good and the experience will be good. Just watch The Johnny Cash show and play along for a few weeks. You'll get it." That's what I did. At 16 I was having some fun and making some dough with my guitar. Beat the hell out of washing dishes.

My point: I learned to play some country. 2 years later I was gigging jazz. I don't think those licks I learned for the Boucheroos got much use or had much influence. The experience on stage certainly helped. And 50 years later if I wanted to play with some country guys I could bring some back and fit right in, but I don't think you'd hear it in my music today. No harm no foul.

For much of the 70's I was attracted to Martino, Coryell, DiMeola, and McLaughlin. I learned a lot. I got some chops. I don't think I sound anything like that now.

Follow your heart.

A good country or blues solo can follow the changes just like jazz does. I'll bet you learned more than you think.

[Christian Miller]

Hey, I take offense!

Lagrima is one of my solo gig staples. I had a whole intro and middle section worked out when I played it last year.

When busking it's actually one of the money tunes

As you were.......

Haha I jest. (I'm a sucker for tenths remember?)

[rpjazzguitar]

Your voice comes from two kinds of work.

One is mastering the instrument. Lots of paths to that - and it's a vague term to begin with. But, generally speaking it's the usual sort of homework that we discuss. All the technical details, all the vocabulary etc etc etc.

The other part, we don't discuss much because it's amorphous. But, at some point, IMO you have to sit down and figure out what you want to sound like. Or, maybe it's recognizing what you already sound like and trying to develop that further.

[ccroft]

...The other part, we don't discuss much because it's amorphous. But, at some point, IMO you have to sit down and figure out what you want to sound like. Or, maybe it's recognizing what you already sound like and trying to develop that further.

Amorphous indeed! In my case it was sorta...unconscious. I'd hear something and it'd be "I love that. I wanna do that. That feels good!" And it could be any instrument.

Maybe I was trying to say in my long-winded way that we already have a voice. We just need to find a way to let it out.

I was trying to speak to one of OP's concerns that working on Pat Martino too much might somehow hurt his own voice. I've played with lots of guys that think like that, and I don't think it's necessarily true.

[ccroft]

A good country or blues solo can follow the changes just like jazz does. I'll bet you learned more than you think.

Quite right! Before that I wasn't sure there were changes. (I was only 16 years old)

Just goes to show what's been said here many times: learning to play is cumulative. Everything you learn helps everything you're trying to do.

[Liarspoker]

Haha I jest. (I'm a sucker for tenths remember?)

Was jesting myself. Love 10ths.

Heading out now to shed some tunes (unfortunately no parimento). Building up the repertoire

[joelf]

You have to listen analytically, and not critically, to yourself and work accordingly to shore up the good and weed out the bad. A guy once said 'I may play a cliche, and say to myself " I couldn't have meant to play that. What did I mean to play?"'. I call that 'studying with yourself'---and it really does work.

I've always hated that I'm not smooth. I have a sound and style, and for good or bad no one plays like me. But I'm not smooth enough, even after all these years, to be the best me possible. Listeners are not mind readers, you have to deliver in a concrete, non-amorphous way.

Jack Zucker posts lessons here a lot. He has tremendous control and an interesting vocab. He sails through 8th note etudes he invented. It's impressive as all get-out.

But I can't use it b/c it's not me. I'm better off listening to my recordings (which I invariably hate at 1st, then just as invariably end up liking---and I think that a healthy attitude, otherwise why bother?) So I sift through and build on what's good and try to do less of what isn't.

If you can't be yourself and like yourself you're artistic dead meat, and all the role models on this planet can't save your ass. You look outward, of course, for inspiration, but no one can do 'it' for or like you...