How important is to transcribe jazz solos?

[pamosmusic]

By ear, just like when a child says they know a
song, you ask how it goes... they sing it to you.

What are you singing?

[pauln]

What are you singing?

Simple explanation
"How it goes" means I know what it sounds like enough to play it.

Explanation of what and how
I think that my musical mind's inner ear sings the aural perception
isomorphic up to the phenomenological qualia of hearing the tune.

[Litterick]

is that a fact?

I mean many artists working today are no longer painting or sculpting, but making installations and so on (or getting other people to make it for them) so is it a bit like comparing apples with oranges? Ability to draw or paint might be fairly irrelevant altogether.

(maybe more like the difference between being a classical composer and being a modern electronic musician working with computers)

What about if you study illustration?

tbh I think creativity and originality is a great white whale. There are stunningly original and creative people out there, but you can’t manufacture it, although people certainly try. Really it’s a gift. It can be emergent from craft, and we have the master works of the pre-romantic era to show us that. But I tend to feel more comfortable with an artisanal attitude rather than the romantic/progressive concept of the artist. (my sister; who is professional graphic designer and illustrator has a similar attitude.)

It is all about theory in art schools these days. You would love it.

Imitating is frowned upon. Instead, the student must develop her 'practice'. Students would like to learn to draw but, in my experience, art schools will not have that.

If you study illustration, you really should not copy others — that is the way to the law courts.

[Christian Miller]

If you study illustration, you really should not copy others — that is the way to the law courts.

It’s only that if you publish try to claim other’s work as your own, obviously

anyway, I think your post basically confirms what I said.

[rpjazzguitar]

I'm intrigued by the issue of originality vs focus on others' material.

After spending decades trying to learn to play others' music, I realized that in the time I had left, I might instead try to develop my own voice.

I'm a bad witness on any of this, but, after listening to old recordings and new, I think it might be that I had a voice long before I thought of it that way. I think I dismissed it because it didn't sound that good to me. With a couple decades of work, I think I've developed that voice a little further, but it's the same basic voice.

So, now I tell myself "this is the way I hear the music".

I still find it lacking, to the point where I finally decided to follow the advice to transcribe (lift, really) a little bit every day.

To sum up, with a lot of work I became slightly better at the same old thing. And, probably, that's because I didn't change my ears much. I hear things a certain way. If I want to sound different I have to think of the math and the solos get worse.

[Christian Miller]

It’s aggravating to see the false dichotomy between learning from others and being ‘original’ raising its head again. There is no dichotomy.

There are only people who feel guilty for not transcribing more haha. Tbh the guilt is a low background level hum for most of us, but it can be hard to find the time.

Which is sad because I always get so much from it. I think it even makes me a better person. Slightly.

[Christian Miller]

I'm a bad witness on any of this

We all are. That’s one reason it’s best not to think about it.

I remember Sco saying ‘when I listen back to my playing I can’t tell if it’s any good or not’.

There can also be a tendency to think originality expresses itself in pitch choices (classical score based mindset), where it seems to me that much or most of it is expressed in the way the notes are played. (David made that point.)

Instead I think the productive path is to engage with the music that appeals to you and with the process of making music. Work on your skills as the need arises.

I presume we are in this because we like music?

[djg]

Work on your skills as the need arises.

welcome to the dark side.

[Christian Miller]

welcome to the dark side.

I’ve never had the time to do owt else. Except for 2021, nothing better to do then haha

[jazznylon]

I don't know if its important or not but when I transcribe a solo I like I find myself very absorbed to what I am doing and time just seemed to fly by pretty fast. More than any other exercises I've done so far

[Litterick]

It’s only that if you publish try to claim other’s work as your own, obviously

anyway, I think your post basically confirms what I said.

What you said was uninformed conjecture. But you are secure in your ignorance, so I will not interfere.

[Litterick]

That's a shame...I guess I've been out of school for a while...but I still teach my high school students the power of imitation.

I was quite shocked by the lack of technical skill at my local art school, and the decline of visual ability among students during this century.

[pamosmusic]

The vibe on this thread is suddenly quite defensive. I must say—I’m rather taken aback.

[pamosmusic]

I'm a bad witness on any of this, but, after listening to old recordings and new, I think it might be that I had a voice long before I thought of it that way. I think I dismissed it because it didn't sound that good to me. With a couple decades of work, I think I've developed that voice a little further, but it's the same basic voice.

This is lovely and very nicely put.

I tell students a lot of the time that a voice is kind of that simple —everyone chooses to listen to a different assortment of music; of that music, everyone will choose to learn and copy different stuff; and of that stuff, everyone will think about what’s going on in their own way.

The voice part is just kind of incidental.

Obviously is much easier to tell students that than it is to think that way about my own playing. We’re always more inclined to put much more pressure on ourselves, I guess.

[Kirk Garrett]

I was quite shocked by the lack of technical skill at my local art school, and the decline of visual ability among students during this century.

I see a lot of younger artists choosing to attend ateliers and participate in online courses focused on building real skills. This came about in part because of the fairly robust animation and comic book industries.

I think I understand why Wayne Thiebaud liked to say he was a painter, and not an artist.

[pamosmusic]

I see a lot of younger artists choosing to attend ateliers and participate in online courses focused on building real skills. This came about in part because of the fairly robust animation and comic book industries.

I think I understand why Wayne Thiebaud liked to say he was a painter, and not an artist.

Unfortunately this is maybe the reverse for jazz. There’s definitely some good stuff online, but a lot of it is sort of context-less. Ninety-seven easy ways to spice up your ii-Vs or whatever. There are a lot of flaws in the university jazz thing (a LOT) but there’s something to be said for learning music in a group of other similarly situated people, and being forced to take ear-training and theory, for example.

Again—a lot of flaws, a lot of variation from program to program and teacher to teacher, certainly some dependence on the music scene around the school. And of course money.

But the internet is a weird place for learning jazz. Just ask all the guys on YouTube who tell us two fingerings for a major scale are two different modes.

[pamosmusic]

Though university or no, the best players are invariably still the ones who come through some sort of apprenticeship.

The church is still a huge influence. Folks who study somewhere like New York or Boston where there is a robust scene to supplement the educational stuff. Folks who grow up in it for whatever reason and educate themselves where education is to be had.

[mr. beaumont]

By ear, just like when a child says they know a
song, you ask how it goes... they sing it to you.

Reminds me of the joke of the piano player on the Titanic...

"HEY! Don't you know the ship is sinking and we're all going to die!?

"Hmmmm...maybe...hum a few bars for me."

[CliffR]

Reminds me of the joke of the piano player on the Titanic...

"HEY! Don't you know the ship is sinking and we're all going to die!?

"Hmmmm...maybe...hum a few bars for me."

Which I guess was the inspiration for this British tea advert

[Christian Miller]

What you said was uninformed conjecture. But you are secure in your ignorance, so I will not interfere.

I fail to see how anything you said contradicts anything I said. Identify the nature of the contradiction and maybe I’d understand why you are such a cross patch. Or maybe not.

[Litterick]

I fail to see how anything you said contradicts anything I said. Identify the nature of the contradiction and maybe I’d understand why you are such a cross patch. Or maybe not.

Of course you cannot see any contradiction with your opinion. That is your manner. I tried to help answer your questions. I have two degrees in art history and a PhD in architecture. I spent years in a university faculty that contains an art school (and a music school). I know artists. I thought I might make a useful contribution to the discussion by contrasting how music and art are taught. But I forgot that your reckons are more valuable than anyone's knowledge and experience. My bad. Sad face.

[djg]

Of course you cannot see any contradiction with your opinion. That is your manner. I tried to help answer your questions. I have two degrees in art history and a PhD in architecture. I spent years in a university faculty that contains an art school (and a music school). I know artists. I thought I might make a useful contribution to the discussion by contrasting how music and art are taught. But I forgot that your reckons are more valuable than anyone's knowledge and experience. My bad. Sad face.

are there any architecture boards we could stink up?

[pamosmusic]

Just for reference, I’d like to cite back to another really helpful thread on this forum:

Sense of humor.Coolness.

[pamosmusic]

Of course you cannot see any contradiction with your opinion. That is your manner. I tried to help answer your questions. I have two degrees in art history and a PhD in architecture. I spent years in a university faculty that contains an art school (and a music school). I know artists. I thought I might make a useful contribution to the discussion by contrasting how music and art are taught. But I forgot that your reckons are more valuable than anyone's knowledge and experience. My bad. Sad face.

For what it’s worth, it seems to me that Christian is expressing some regret that imitation isn’t more encouraged as a way to learn. And that folks seem more inclined to chase originality at the expense of really studying by way of imitation.

I’m just a rube with no PhD, but that actually sounds an awful lot like what you’re saying too. That you regret how art schools seem way more caught up in theory and working in weird media than in imitating the masters. You mention how it seems like students of this generation seem not to be able to see the way earlier generations could. Anyway … I could be wrong, but actually it sounds like y’all are kind of saying the same thing.

[pauln]

That is exactly how I read them, too.